Guest Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Can I change something through what I believe about it? Or does it remain the same despite what I believe? not sure what you mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 (edited) Another question. If I speak negatively of islam am I offending God? And if so is it because allah of the koran and islam is God? Edited January 13, 2015 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilllabettt Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 I find it interesting only 1 person answered my question if God works through islam. And if someone like bin laden could of been doing "the will of god" Obviously the answer is no but honestly don't know what some supporter may think. This question is meaningless. God can work through the Devil himself if He chooses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbTherese Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 (edited) God just might be working through some areas of Islam - not necessarily through all of them where sin is the motivation. Just as God is indeed working through Christianity and Catholicism - but not necessarily through all areas where sin is the motivation. We have a shocking example of this in the recent scandals in The Church involving our priesthood and leadership in cover ups etc, some of them. Certainly, what Bin Laden has advocated and effected was not pleasing to God, nor was it the work of God. It was seriously sinfully motivated. It was politically motivated with murderous intentions of the innocent. Further, it was seriously sinful scandal in that the conscious intention was to lead others, and as many as possible, into the same politically motivated murder of innocents. The non radical branch of Islam states that what terrorists are doing is not Islam at all - that is, it is not their beliefs about the Islamic religion. This means, in this instance, that there are two entirely different understandings of the Koran. What are the real beliefs of Islam in the Koran? I think one would need to read the Koran and then ask for expert interpretation of what one has read and one would need to be very careful indeed about who one asked for that expert interpretation. Just as with our Scripture, we need expert interpretation which The Church gives us. Very often in both instances (Koran and Scripture) undoubtedly translations differ for one, and this can and has brought about diametrically opposed beliefs. I think that logic has to tell us that there at least are two opposed branches of Islam (and in fact many more). The radical and the non radical as one example. Just as today we perhaps can see that there are branches of Catholicism where beliefs differ and are even opposed. Edited January 13, 2015 by BarbaraTherese Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST BERNARD Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 I am new here so will tread warily, but you know, there are fanatics in every religion, not just Islam. The God of Abraham wasn't a very nice sounding guy until Jesus came along and started telling people that He was a God of love. Since Islam didn't follow Jesus' teachings, they missed out on the compassion and mercy aspect somewhere along the line. but then, the Crusades were a pretty bloody form of Christianity for awhile too, as was the Inquisition. Maybe we just have to separate the extremists from those who try to follow Mohammed in a more peaceful way. I do think they have the same God, but they interpret Him in different ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbTherese Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 (edited) This question is meaningless. God can work through the Devil himself if He chooses. Excellent point! (I'm out of props, though I don't know how) Edited January 13, 2015 by BarbaraTherese Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbTherese Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 I am new here so will tread warily, but you know, there are fanatics in every religion, not just Islam. The God of Abraham wasn't a very nice sounding guy until Jesus came along and started telling people that He was a God of love. Since Islam didn't follow Jesus' teachings, they missed out on the compassion and mercy aspect somewhere along the line. but then, the Crusades were a pretty bloody form of Christianity for awhile too, as was the Inquisition. Maybe we just have to separate the extremists from those who try to follow Mohammed in a more peaceful way. I do think they have the same God, but they interpret Him in different ways. Well said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Plenty of shame to pass out on this thread. How many of you have spoken two words to a devout Muslim? Read the Quran, set foot in a mosque? But you know enough about it to ridicule Islam, an ancient religious tradition which has made giant contributions to art, science, and philosophy. What would St. Francis think of you? Not sure who you are referring to, but I do know St. Francis would have been / was / is very into the idea of converting Muslims to Catholicism. Seeing as he went to the Egyptian sultan intending to either convert him or face martyrdom. Good man, he was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbTherese Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Barbara said: Can I change something through what I believe about it? Or does it remain the same despite what I believe? not sure what you mean. As an example only, take a neighbour. I believe that my neighbour is a thief. But in reality I am wrong. Does what I believe about my neighbour make my neighbour a thief. No it does not. Just as whatever one believes about God cannot change God in Himself. Both Christians and Islam believe in the God of Abraham. But what they believe about the God of Abraham differs. Beliefs cannot change the object itself, cannot change who the God of Abraham is in Himself. Another member might be able to explain it more simply if you still cannot understand, Josh. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not A Real Name Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Ok, but in that case Christianity is nothing new or unique. It will always be corrupted as a kingdom of this world. "The corruption of the best is the worst."What are you talking about? You can use the word "conversion" but essentially what that means, in the real world, is empire, a vast Christian empire that must be maintained with blood, war, slavery, inquisition, and all the other things we have seen throughout Christian (or rather, human) history.Conversion in the real world and in relation to Christianity means conversion. It has nothing to do with the building up or maintaining of Empires. These things are not and never have been behind the Christian Religion's motive for conversion. Note I'm not saying that 'conversion' has not been used as a slogan by those claiming to be Christian in order to increase their own earthly gain. True Christians and true Christianity, however, will always work for the conversion of others without expecting to gain anything earthly from it, in fact, true Christianity understands and expects that conversions will require and be the result of sacrifices rather than gains. Also you're half right when you say these conversions will have to be maintained by blood, but not in the way you think it. The blood must by that of Christians and not of their enemies. Things like war, slavery, and inquisitions are things which happen through human weakness. While they are things which seem unavoidable due to human weakness they, nevertheless, will never be deemed as necessary for the existence of the Christian Faith in this world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilllabettt Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Not sure who you are referring to, but I do know St. Francis would have been / was / is very into the idea of converting Muslims to Catholicism. Seeing as he went to the Egyptian sultan intending to either convert him or face martyrdom. Good man, he was. Mmm hmmm something tells me St Francis did not tell the Sultan his religion was a bloodthirsty invention of the devil. If the goal of Christians who ridicule Islam is actually the conversion of Muslims, then their methods are not merely a violation of human decency but also extremely stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Mmm hmmm something tells me St Francis did not tell the Sultan his religion was a bloodthirsty invention of the devil. If the goal of Christians who ridicule Islam is actually the conversion of Muslims, then their methods are not merely a violation of human decency but also extremely stupid. Never said that was his tactic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilllabettt Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Never said that was his tactic. Right. It wasn't his tactic. Because he loved Muslims, was respectful of their religious traditions, and hoped for their conversion to Christ. Which is why St Francis would be ashamed of a lot of the stuff on this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST BERNARD Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Right. It wasn't his tactic. Because he loved Muslims, was respectful of their religious traditions, and hoped for their conversion to Christ. Which is why St Francis would be ashamed of a lot of the stuff on this thread. If only we could remember the love part more often! Good stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbTherese Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 (edited) Mmm hmmm something tells me St Francis did not tell the Sultan his religion was a bloodthirsty invention of the devil. If the goal of Christians who ridicule Islam is actually the conversion of Muslims, then their methods are not merely a violation of human decency but also extremely stupid. I think probably the sultan already realised the bloodthirsty and barbaric intentions of the Catholic crusaders when Francis travelled to him. The crusades were well underway then and the crusades were a dreadful event in our history - extremely bloodthirsty and cruel on our part for one. Jesus has shown us and lived out, taught us, the ONLY way to bring about The Kingdom ("Thy Kingdom come")............ Luke Ch17: "20] And being asked by the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come? he answered them, and said: The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: [21] Neither shall they say: Behold here, or behold there. For lo, the kingdom of God is within you." We keep trying to bring about what we think is the kingdom by observation, or by observing others adopt our doctrines and dogmas, beliefs. The Kingdom exists through being a particular kind of person bringing about a particular kind of community which only the same ilk of peoples can bring about by their person. Jesus was the first and we are called to follow in His Footsteps. We keep trying to convert others by arguing doctrine and dogma and that is a part of the process; however, if we are not being a particular kind of person in those exchanges, our words will fall on completely deaf ears............and guaranteed fail proof! Edited January 13, 2015 by BarbaraTherese Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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