Why Does Catholicism Teach We Worship The Same God As Islam?

[franciscanheart]

Instead of asking 'how should we convert Muslims', people should ask 'how should we love Muslims' or 'how can we become the sort of people, with God's aid, that could love Muslims'. Maybe if the Catholics of yesteryear had asked themselves this question, they would have converted a lot less because in the Americas, but they would have been better Catholics for sure.

Forgot to comment on this part. I really love this sentiment. I work all the time to love and respect my brothers and sisters from other faith backgrounds. I think I am actually more conscious of how I love people of other faiths. Is that terrible? Anyway, I think you're right: we have to focus on Love first and foremost. Love is, after all, the converter, no?

[An Historian]

I don't have anything against Catholicism in particular.

 

I'm opposed to thinking that we are the ones who convert. God converts, we are at best, his helpers in that. Prosyletisation for me is being the best Christian I can be. Loving others for their sake is the only way to love. Loving in order to convert in the sense of getting them to worship the same as me is like guys being nice to girls in order to get inside their pantaloons. There are some people who see religion as a demographic game. Every person converted is another victory for the 'right' side. I don't like that and we shouldn't think like that. People that we love are under no obligation to 'put out' because we love them.

 

Instead of asking 'how should we convert Muslims', people should ask 'how should we love Muslims' or 'how can we become the sort of people, with God's aid, that could love Muslims'. Maybe if the Catholics of yesteryear had asked themselves this question, they would have converted a lot less because in the Americas, but they would have been better Catholics for sure.

 

Our Lord commissioned His Church to go "teach [...] all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."  Now of course it is God's grace that converts.  But He deigns to make use of men to accomplish His ends.  God spare us from the folly of thinking that the conversion of Saint Paul is the ordinary operation of grace!

 

You say that we should not be asking how we should convert Muslims, but rather how should we love Muslims.  Above you said that the only way to love others is to love them for their sake.  But unless a man dies in the embrace of the Christian faith, he will not be saved.  You have came thundering in this thread with judgementalism and assumptions.  You say that we are only interested in demographics?  About proving our side "right"?  My faith is not a political ideology.  The Franciscan martyrs did not die in Morocco for the sake of demographics.  The Jesuit missionaries did not die in Latin America for the sake of demographics.  Saints Peter and Paul did not die in Rome for the sake of demographics.

 

But they all died in their missionary efforts.  They all died preaching the Good News of Jesus Christ.  They all died seeking the conversion of souls for the glory of God and for that soul's realisation of its eternal predestination in Christ.

 

No.  I do not seek the conversion of Muslims for the sake of political point scoring.  I do not seek mutilate charity by ignoring the need that my brother has in Christ.  The missionary efforts of the Catholic Church, the personal witness we must all have to the world, is the greatest act of love a man can make.

[An Historian]

I don't think of it as winning people over to the light from the dark or anything like that, though I see where many fall into that trap.

 

"For ye were once darkness, but are now light in the Lord: walk as children of light."

 

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  The same was in the beginning with God.  All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made.  In him was life, and the life was the light of men.  And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."

 

"And we have the more firm prophetical word: whereunto you do well to attend, as to a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts."

 

"As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world."

 

And finally...

 

"Again therefore, Jesus spoke to them, saying: I am the light of the world: he that followeth me, walketh not in darkness, but shall have the light of life."

 

You may not think of it in these terms.  But Jesus did.

[ardillacid]

:coffee:

[PhuturePriest]

"For ye were once darkness, but are now light in the Lord: walk as children of light."

 

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  The same was in the beginning with God.  All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made.  In him was life, and the life was the light of men.  And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."

 

"And we have the more firm prophetical word: whereunto you do well to attend, as to a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts."

 

"As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world."

 

And finally...

 

"Again therefore, Jesus spoke to them, saying: I am the light of the world: he that followeth me, walketh not in darkness, but shall have the light of life."

 

You may not think of it in these terms.  But Jesus did.

 

You forgot this one:

"You are the light of the world. A city seated on a mountain cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle and put it under a bushel, but upon a candlestick, that it may shine to all that are in the house." Matt. 5:14-15

[Kia ora]

Our Lord commissioned His Church to go "teach [...] all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."  Now of course it is God's grace that converts.  But He deigns to make use of men to accomplish His ends.  God spare us from the folly of thinking that the conversion of Saint Paul is the ordinary operation of grace!

 

You say that we should not be asking how we should convert Muslims, but rather how should we love Muslims.  Above you said that the only way to love others is to love them for their sake.  But unless a man dies in the embrace of the Christian faith, he will not be saved.  You have came thundering in this thread with judgementalism and assumptions.  You say that we are only interested in demographics?  About proving our side "right"?  My faith is not a political ideology.  The Franciscan martyrs did not die in Morocco for the sake of demographics.  The Jesuit missionaries did not die in Latin America for the sake of demographics.  Saints Peter and Paul did not die in Rome for the sake of demographics.

 

But they all died in their missionary efforts.  They all died preaching the Good News of Jesus Christ.  They all died seeking the conversion of souls for the glory of God and for that soul's realisation of its eternal predestination in Christ.

 

No.  I do not seek the conversion of Muslims for the sake of political point scoring.  I do not seek mutilate charity by ignoring the need that my brother has in Christ.  The missionary efforts of the Catholic Church, the personal witness we must all have to the world, is the greatest act of love a man can make.

 

I made two points:

 

Prosyletisation for me is being the best Christian I can be.

 

and

 

Loving in order to convert in the sense of getting them to worship the same as me is like guys being nice to girls in order to get inside their pantaloons.

 

The way I see Christianity is this. Christianity is a religion of witnesses. Chrisitians are called to be witnesses to God. They witness by their actions, their words, their way of life. That is the meaning of 'martyr'.

 

Conversion is not a human feat, I think we all agree on that. So to me, witnessing is far, far more important to humans. I don't want to convert Muslims or anyone else of another religion for that matter, I just want to be a witness. A witness for what? The Gospel.

 

This is why I made the point of saying that:

 

Loving in order to convert in the sense of getting them to worship the same as me is like guys being nice to girls in order to get inside their pantaloons.

 

 

If by convert you mean get someone to worship like me, then no, that's not my intention. And I don't see why they have to worship like me in order to be close to God. If we look at sacramental theology, which could be a counterpoint to what I just said, although I absolutely believe the sacraments bring us close to God and are a material form of the communication of spiritual, divine grace, I don't believe they're the only way to bring people close to God. Worship does not save us. Worship is a form of expression of gratitude and praise for God, God who saves us. God may save us through these acts of worship but I don't believe God saves us only through these forms.

 

If by conversion however you mean strengthen their relationship with God, then that is an eminently good and loving goal. To turn people towards God is always a good. To turn people towards my way of worshipping is not necessarily a good, and in fact the two can be at odds. Why do I think that?

 

I just don't think that a person must belong to my denomination of Christianity in order to love God perfectly and fully, because I don't think it's true that only I or my church love God perfectly and fully. It's not much better if I say that the other Christians love God, but not as perfectly and fully as I do. I don't know. How could I know? Why would I think that only I know how to love God in the way He wants to be loved? I don't believe that only we worship God as He wants to be worshipped. I think another Christian can love God more purely, more beautiful than I do outside of my church, believing differently than me. Catholics may believe differently, but that's why I'm not a Catholic.

 

Same goes for non-Christians. People say Muslims love God imperfectly by virtue of their religion, but I don't really know how anyone could say that with any certainty. If you love as Christ loves, selflessly, in service, then what is that if not love? Do only Christians - and only a few very good Christians at that - love? Does God, who is Love, for all intents and purposes exist only for a precious few? But God would never abandon the many spiritually filthy for the elite spiritually pure. He came for the sinners, not for the righteous.

 

If you judge people by their fruits, I've seen better Muslims than Christians. That is, Muslims acting like followers of Christ (that is what the standard of 'better' is for me) more than Christians. That Muslims come to believe the same things as I do does not matter as much to me as the wish that they keep acting like Christ. To be the Christ followers that they are, even if they reject Him as I know Him. I believe in salvation and damnation, but I believe salvation is not so much believing in the monotone listing of facts that Jesus is the Son of God, but BELIEVING that Jesus in the Son of God. Demons believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that He came to save his sheep, but that does not make them Christians, that does not save them. The belief that they have must be the boring monotone listing of facts, true but trivial to them, whereas the belief that a Christian must have must involve the very same facts, but with an entirely different attitude and reaction. 

 

I have nothing against spreading the Good News. Prosyletisation is a vocation of the Church. However it's all a question of what that involves. I think witnessing is the primary thing. Witnessing is not passive inactivity, just as pacifism is not passivism. But it's definitely not storming the halls of power and taking the reigns of the economic and political machine either. In that respect, I'm one of those tired and boring people who think that when Christians were being slaughtered and persecuted for their faith, they were being better Christians than when they were sitting on Rome's throne.
 

[Kia ora]

Witnessing gets a bad reaction nowadays as a kind of passive inactivity, a bystander watching things go by. But that's the opposite of what it's supposed to mean. Witnessing is to be a witness. To be there. Not to be a spectacle, a bizarre freakshow for one's own sake like the gladiatorial games of old, which if anything are idolatrous and evil, but to be an icon. Icons are not meant to point to themselves (how could any icon, however well painted be Jesus or be Mary), but they point to what they symbolise. They point to something beyond them. To be a martyr of God is to be a kind of icon of God, and I think to be an 'image of God' is the very point of being a Christian.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Kia ora