Why Does Catholicism Teach We Worship The Same God As Islam?

[Nihil Obstat]

Didn't you guys forcibly convert the Muslims and Jews of Spain? Seemed to work well.

 

/s

"You guys." :rolleyes: 

[Kia ora]

If it's difficult to convert Muslims, who after all worship the same God and share the same Abrahamic narrative, how in God's name, literally, did missionaries get around to converting the Americas?

 

Maybe 'you guys' should set up a system of intolerance like the Catholics did in the Americas where places of worship are destroyed, holy texts burned, set up an overbearing state structure that punishes you for believing something else, and where to get anywhere in terms of social prestige, you need to convert to Catholicism. That's worked stunningly well so far. Catholicism is big in the Americas no?

 

Seems to me that tolerance and service and love for your fellow man get you few converts. Hatred and bloodshed seem to be great ways of increasing your convert pool. If that's all that anyone cares about that is.

 

 

[Nihil Obstat]

Someone urinate in your Fruity Pebbles this morning?

[PhuturePriest]

Someone urinate in your Fruity Pebbles this morning?

 

Kia Ora strikes me as more of a Lucky Charms person, or maybe even Froot Loops.

[veritasluxmea]

If it's difficult to convert Muslims, who after all worship the same God and share the same Abrahamic narrative, how in God's name, literally, did missionaries get around to converting the Americas?

 

idk about the rest of that... anyways...

 

Yeah, historically speaking missionary efforts in Muslim countries are usually not very successful, compared to missionary efforts elsewhere. I don't know why. There probably isn't one factor that explains it. I know one person here in America who converted to Orthodoxy from a Muslim background, but even they aren't fully in the Catholic Church. 

 

As for the Americas, they were basically converted by the Our Lady of Guadalupe apparitions. At the same time millions of protestants were leaving the Faith in Europe, millions of people in the Americas were coming into the Faith by Our Lady. Before her apparitions, missionary efforts were not as successful compared to what happened afterwords. 

[Norseman82]

Ironically, I was just at a talk on Islam at my parish tonight on Islam.  It did get heated when the discussion turned to Mohammed's military activities and what the Koran says about violence.   

 

As far as the question posed by the thread is concerned, let's ask if Catholicism worships the same God as Judaism.  There is a parallel there because Judaism and Islam both reject the Trinity and both are descended from Abraham.  If Judaism worships the same God as Catholicism but Islam does not, what's the difference? 

 

For the record, in college I had a fundamentalist Muslim roommate for over a year.  He was actually very pleasant and we got along very well and respected each other and I got to see up close what a

serious Muslim lived like.  I also learned about the tax on "people of the book" (as Jews and Christians are called) as well as the view that all Muslims should live under a caliphate stretching from Pakistan to Morocco.  But I never heard him express violence nor did I feel threatened by him. 

[An Historian]

Okay, I couldn't stay away.

 

I just left my fiancée at the airport and people are wrong on the internet.  I must needs distract myself.

 

First off, I object to the mocking tone of one of the above posters who criticised another for their unwillingness to step inside a mosque.  Considering that Canon Law once forbid Catholics under pain of mortal sin from entering a non-Catholic place of worship then you have no right to belittle someone for keeping to the spirit, even if the letter has been abrogated.  What Canon Law once enforced cannot be immoral.  To mock it or belittle it is a wholly unhealthy and non-Catholic attitude.  We have absolutely no obligation whatsoever to enter into another religion's place of worship [b]and no Catholic is under any obligation whatsoever to learn about and understand other religions.[/b]  I see absolutely no reason why little Mary Murphey should have a working knowledge of Islam when she lives in a little Irish cottage on the Shannon river.  The spirit that would try and educate her on Islam is an unwholesome spirit.

 

Josh, Muslims profess to worship the God of Abraham.  That is all that the Second Vatican Council teaches, and that is true.  No, they do not worship Him rightly, no, they do not even truly know Him.  But they profess faith in the same God as we.  It's that simple.  There is a diabolical love affair with Islam, with all non-Catholic religions, that reigns supreme in cdertain ecclesiastical circles.  But not in the magisterium of the Church.  By acknowledging the Islamic profession in Abraham's God, we have a good starting point from which to evangelise them.  It also provides us a vehicle in which to work on building a social relationship with them.  The fact of the matter is that Muslims will exist until the consummation of the world.  Currently they are a majority in any nations are are a significant minority in many more.  They are our neighbours and we have to be able to get along with them.

 

Which Islamic tradition is the "true" Islam?  Which tradition is more faithful to Muhammed's teachings?  I couldn't tell you, nor is it my place to tell you.  As another has already said, how would you feel if a non-Christian came up to you and told you that Calvinism is the true Christian faith?  At the end of the day, regardless of which Islamic tradition is the more faithful to its roots, [b]they're all false and heretical traditions.[/b]  The question for us, then, is which Islamic tradition is the lesser of two evils?  The peaceful interpretations of Islam, even if they are heretical and the warmongers are the orthodox ones, is more advantageous to us, both socially and spiritually.  We can socially coexist with "peaceful" Islam, and shouting at those Muslims that they are wrong, that their religion is barbaric, won't help.

 

No, Islam will not save a Muslim.  Unless they profess faith in Jesus Christ, rely on His merits and receive baptis, or at least have the explicit desire thereof, they will not be saved.  But they have a better start than most.

 

Another poster pondered why we have not had great success against Islam.  It's really not too complicated.  Islam is a vulgar religion, it's simple, and it has a strong social doctrine.  When I say it's vulgar I mean to say that it's materialistic and appeals to the fallen appetites of man.  It's simple in that, although it's rigorist, it really doesn't have grteat spiritual depth.  It is the simplicitly of Islam that won it so many converts.  And it's strong social doctrine which requires the full saturation of society with Islam means that it takes an extraordinary strong hold on the minds of its adherents from their youth.

 

Another asked, what would Saint Francis do?  That is the question.  I believe that the tradition of Saints Dominic and Francis is the answer to the conversion of the Islamic world.  The philosophy of Aquinas has already utterly dismantled the intellectual sumit of Islamic thought, and the example of Saint Francis and the early Franciscan martyrs is the double-edged sword which will win the day.  We convert them with peace, love and TRUTH.

 

But we DO seek to convert them.

[Amppax]

Other than calling Muslim's heretical, which is odd, (unless you subscribe to the belief that they developed out of heretical Christian groups) I'd say solid post, Historian. :like:

 

Although, yes, their beliefs about Christ and Mary are heretical... Hmm, I'll have to think about that more. 

[An Historian]

Other than calling Muslim's heretical, which is odd, (unless you subscribe to the belief that they developed out of heretical Christian groups) I'd say solid post, Historian. :like:

 

Although, yes, their beliefs about Christ and Mary are heretical... Hmm, I'll have to think about that more. 

 

Saint John Damascene was the first to write about this.  Muhammed was familiar with both the Old and New Testaments and the surrounding Christian society.  He was, apparently, on intimate terms with some Arians.  The position Jesus and even Mary have in Islam really testifies to its roots.  I wouldn't really describe it as a Christian heresy per se, because they're not in any way Christians nor profess to be so.  But it is certainly an heretical doctrine which finds its source in both the insanity and greed of Mohammed, and the various heresies of the first few centuries.

 

This quote from Belloc pretty much sums it up.

 

"Unlike all the other heresiarchs "[T]he chief heresiarch, Mohammed himself, was not, like most heresiarchs, a man of Catholic birth, and doctrine to begin with. He sprang from pagans. But that which he taught was in the main Catholic doctrine, oversimplified. It was the great Catholic world - on the frontiers of which he lived, whose influence was all around him and whose territories he had known by travel-"

Edited January 14, 2015 by An Historian

[franciscanheart]

Maybe I'll remember to come back and prop some posts?

[franciscanheart]

If it's difficult to convert Muslims, who after all worship the same God and share the same Abrahamic narrative, how in God's name, literally, did missionaries get around to converting the Americas?
 
Maybe 'you guys' should set up a system of intolerance like the Catholics did in the Americas where places of worship are destroyed, holy texts burned, set up an overbearing state structure that punishes you for believing something else, and where to get anywhere in terms of social prestige, you need to convert to Catholicism. That's worked stunningly well so far. Catholicism is big in the Americas no?
 
Seems to me that tolerance and service and love for your fellow man get you few converts. Hatred and bloodshed seem to be great ways of increasing your convert pool. If that's all that anyone cares about that is.

I'm sorry to see you so quickly dismissed. I don't know what your damage is, exactly, but I did want to say this: In my parish, we've experienced consistent, strong growth. We have double and triple digit numbers at the Easter vigil every year. We have so many people coming into the faith, and that is happening all over the world, every single year. People are attracted by Love. People are attracted to Truth. At the very least, once people have been exposed to Truth, it becomes increasingly difficult to ignore or deny it.

I'm sorry for whatever you have experienced or been taught that has made you hostile towards our faith.

[Amppax]

Saint John Damascene was the first to write about this.  Muhammed was familiar with both the Old and New Testaments and the surrounding Christian society.  He was, apparently, on intimate terms with some Arians.  The position Jesus and even Mary have in Islam really testifies to its roots.  I wouldn't really describe it as a Christian heresy per se, because they're not in any way Christians nor profess to be so.  But it is certainly an heretical doctrine which finds its source in both the insanity and greed of Mohammed, and the various heresies of the first few centuries.

 

This quote from Belloc pretty much sums it up.

 

"Unlike all the other heresiarchs "[T]he chief heresiarch, Mohammed himself, was not, like most heresiarchs, a man of Catholic birth, and doctrine to begin with. He sprang from pagans. But that which he taught was in the main Catholic doctrine, oversimplified. It was the great Catholic world - on the frontiers of which he lived, whose influence was all around him and whose territories he had known by travel-"

 

I see, thanks for the clarification.

 

Surprisingly enough, I recall that various modern historians have a pretty similar take on the origins of Islam. Though, from what I remember reading or being taught, it was from Monophysites that he drew a lot of his doctrine. It's interesting, as the Christian East drove out heretics, many went to the Arabian peninsula, which would help to explain Mohammad familiarity (sort of) with heretical Christianity. Also of note is the prominence of Judaism, the various Jewish tribes that Mohammed encountered. If I'm recalling correctly, one of these tribes sheltered the Muslims when they were first driven out of Medina. Of course, they were later wiped out when they refused to convert. 

 

Anyway, interesting stuff. I hadn't read Damascene or Belloc on it before. Thanks. 

[Kia ora]

I'm sorry to see you so quickly dismissed. I don't know what your damage is, exactly, but I did want to say this: In my parish, we've experienced consistent, strong growth. We have double and triple digit numbers at the Easter vigil every year. We have so many people coming into the faith, and that is happening all over the world, every single year. People are attracted by Love. People are attracted to Truth. At the very least, once people have been exposed to Truth, it becomes increasingly difficult to ignore or deny it.

I'm sorry for whatever you have experienced or been taught that has made you hostile towards our faith.

 

I don't have anything against Catholicism in particular.

 

 

I'm opposed to thinking that we are the ones who convert. God converts, we are at best, his helpers in that. Prosyletisation for me is being the best Christian I can be. Loving others for their sake is the only way to love. Loving in order to convert in the sense of getting them to worship the same as me is like guys being nice to girls in order to get inside their pants. There are some people who see religion as a demographic game. Every person converted is another victory for the 'right' side. I don't like that and we shouldn't think like that. People that we love are under no obligation to 'put out' because we love them.

 

Instead of asking 'how should we convert Muslims', people should ask 'how should we love Muslims' or 'how can we become the sort of people, with God's aid, that could love Muslims'. Maybe if the Catholics of yesteryear had asked themselves this question, they would have converted a lot less because in the Americas, but they would have been better Catholics for sure.

[PhuturePriest]

Other than calling Muslim's heretical, which is odd, (unless you subscribe to the belief that they developed out of heretical Christian groups) I'd say solid post, Historian. :like:

 

Although, yes, their beliefs about Christ and Mary are heretical... Hmm, I'll have to think about that more. 

 

Muhammad spends a lot of time discrediting Christianity, but the sad fact is, he didn't have a firm grasp of what Catholicism actually taught. He lived near a town of heretic Christians, and so learned of Christianity from them. In the Qur'an, Mary and Jesus both renounce the claim that they are divine. Why? This makes sense in the case of Jesus, but why Mary? Because he literally thought Mary was the third person of the trinity, and this is documented.

[franciscanheart]

I don't have anything against Catholicism in particular.
 
 
I'm opposed to thinking that we are the ones who convert. God converts, we are at best, his helpers in that. Prosyletisation for me is being the best Christian I can be. Loving others for their sake is the only way to love. Loving in order to convert in the sense of getting them to worship the same as me is like guys being nice to girls in order to get inside their pantaloons. There are some people who see religion as a demographic game. Every person converted is another victory for the 'right' side. I don't like that and we shouldn't think like that. People that we love are under no obligation to 'put out' because we love them.
 
Instead of asking 'how should we convert Muslims', people should ask 'how should we love Muslims' or 'how can we become the sort of people, with God's aid, that could love Muslims'. Maybe if the Catholics of yesteryear had asked themselves this question, they would have converted a lot less because in the Americas, but they would have been better Catholics for sure.

I definitely agree with your sentiment. I think of it a little bit differently in the expectation department. I think of it as, "I love you so much and because I love you, I want you to have the fullness of Truth." I don't think of it as winning people over to the light from the dark or anything like that, though I see where many fall into that trap. I think the underlying desire is for all to know Christ in the Eucharist and to know the fullness of Truth, but I definitely see where actions, at times, have surpassed that holy desire, or have given the wrong impression.

I also think there's a lot of room in the world for different approaches. Some people will be much more direct and/or vocal about the Church or Christianity where I might rather it come through in my words and actions, or vice versa.

We are definitely on the same page about one thing: we are merely instruments. I convert no one. Only the grace of God softens and changes hearts -- with active participation, usually, on the part of the individual. If we are open to God's grace and take the opportunities we are given to share Christ's love, there is great opportunity for conversion.