Guest Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 I'm beginning to have more and more of a problem with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Is it because it's a huge religion and "religion" is cool? So we should support it and defend it? And even say there is truth in it and as some people have said here that it's "beautiful"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 (edited) I respect non Catholic Christians for calling it what it is. It actually troubles me to see the affection the Church and a lot of Catholics seem to have towards it. Edited January 12, 2015 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Is it because it's a huge religion and "religion" is cool? So we should support it and defend it? And even say there is truth in it and as some people have said here that it's "beautiful"? 841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330 842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race: All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331 843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332 844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them: Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333 845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.334 330 LG 16; cf. NA 3. 331 NA 1.332 LG 16; cf. NA 2; EN 53.333 LG 16; cf. Rom 1:21, 25.334 St. Augustine, Serm. 96,7,9:PL 38,588; St. Ambrose, De virg. 18 118:PL 16,297B; cf. already 1 Pet 3:20-21. Lumen Gentium 16: 16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, "Preach the Gospel to every creature",(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 I urge you to read fully what the Church teaches about other faiths to understand the teachings better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhuturePriest Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 There are some noted theologians such as Bishop Schneider who call for an edit in the wording. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 (edited) I don't have a problem with other faiths/religions. Only the one who wants to take over the world and murder anyone who gets in their way. Or murder anyone who decides they no longer want to be part of this religion. Thanks for the link but honestly it seems as if a lot of Catholics support Islam and call the Koran beautiful because their in love with the idea of religion. They see the denouncing of Islam as an attack also on the Catholic religion. In 2015 I'm a Catholic who is not a fan of religion in the least bit. I accept Catholicism is a religion but one religion is enough. I will tolerate the other ones unless they insist on murdering everyone. And that's the case here. And it weakens my faith when Catholics/Catholic Church acts as if the Koran has truth and is even beautiful. I've heard it said that Catholicism will unite with Islam in the time of the antichrist as the one world religion. That's scary. Edited January 12, 2015 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 I forgot also murder innocent people who aren't even getting in the way. Just murder them because. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theoketos Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Josh, I struggle to appreciate Islam too. But the Church insists on this point not because of what that religion gets wrong. But those who seek God find Him even if they do not know as they ought. I recommend reading the The Last Battle by C.S. Lewis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhuturePriest Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Keep in mind that that part of Vatican II which Lil Red quotes is not infallible. Councils are not inherently infallible; the sections are only as infallible as the dogmas they are referring to, and since this is not referring to a dogma, it is therefore not infallible. Secondly, the Pope and Councils only have the power to infallibly declare truths about God and the Catholic faith, not about other faiths. There are many non-rad trad, faithful Catholic clergy and laymen who take issue with this part of the Council just as much as you and I do, and taking issue with it does not put into question your loyalty to Church doctrine, because it is not a Church doctrine, so we are free to question it and even disagree with it if our consciences say so. All of that is obviously not referring to something which is dogmatically defined, which in those cases, even if we can't understand it or take issue with it, we must with humility obey the Church, because it is God speaking through the Church, not just the opinion of the Pope or Bishops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 (edited) So why not just say that. People who seek God find him. Why give any bit of creditability to the religion or the koran? Why is that necessary? Edited January 12, 2015 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Keep in mind that that part of Vatican II which Lil Red quotes is not infallible. Councils are not inherently infallible; the sections are only as infallible as the dogmas they are referring to, and since this is not referring to a dogma, it is therefore not infallible. Secondly, the Pope and Councils only have the power to infallibly declare truths about God and the Catholic faith, not about other faiths. There are many non-rad trad, faithful Catholic clergy and laymen who take issue with this part of the Council just as much as you and I do, and taking issue with it does not put into question your loyalty to Church doctrine, because it is not a Church doctrine, so we are free to question it and even disagree with it if our consciences say so. All of that is obviously not referring to something which is dogmatically defined, which in those cases, even if we can't understand it or take issue with it, we must with humility obey the Church, because it is God speaking through the Church, not just the opinion of the Pope or Bishops. Great post and thanks for reply. God bless brother and hope you are well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhuturePriest Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 So why not just say that. People who seek God find him. Why give any bit of creditability to the religion or the koran? Why is that necessary? Personally, I think those words were put in for the sake of trying to butter Muslims up so they would like us more. It was a theological concept driven by a political aim. Or, the Council Fathers simply knew nothing of Islam, which is also possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhuturePriest Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 (edited) So why not just say that. People who seek God find him. Why give any bit of creditability to the religion or the koran? Why is that necessary? However, it must be noted that in the document itself there is a very important word: "These profess to hold the faith of Abraham..." That's a very important distinction, though I'm of the mind with Bishop Schneider that the document still very much needs to be edited or perhaps scrapped altogether. Edited January 12, 2015 by PhuturePriest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maggyie Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 The Muslims consider themselves the children of Abraham, they worship his God, imperfectly in many ways, such as not recognizing the divinity of Jesus. The Jews consider themselves the children of Abraham, they worship his God, but I would say still imperfectly, because they don't recognize the divinity of Jesus. Whereas we are children of Abraham and worship his God in the fullness of his light. We are the only ones who do that. The others are troubled by shadows. However they are all children of Abraham and that counts for something. Islam itself sort of has this concept, referring to Jews and Christians as "people of the book." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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