Frustrated And Disillusioned?

[HisChildForever]

I don't feel the same frustrations as you, Maggie, but I do frequently find myself frustrated when I see Catholics (or is it the Church?) thrust forward a very "black and white" point of view. I used to see the world like this but it's increasingly becoming gray for me, so when I find myself confused I meditate on compassion and love.

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

The Lord opposes the proud even when we are right. 

 

Props! (I've exceeded my quota for today.)

[Lil Red]

For myself, I see it more as that I wasn't raised as Catholic first, but an American conservative. So I'm constantly fighting against the narrow view point of American Catholic. I'm trying to challenge myself that Catholicism isn't just my view point as a white, female, American. 

 

I think, in my experience, that a lot of people are using Catholicism within the context of their own political or geographical experience, not thinking about how Catholicism isn't just lived through that view. But people don't often want to challenge/change their thinking about viewpoints, especially when it comes to hot topic issues and will resist Catholic thinking/teaching on those viewpoints, instead relying on their own political/geographical bias.

 

Does any of this make sense? :( Sorry if it's not. 

 

 

[Ash Wednesday]

I think taking a personal spiritual retreat will be very helpful. 

 

Generally, beefing up my internal spiritual life and relationship with God has helped me tremendously when dealing with difficult people in my own life or my frustrations with them. If that means needing to make more time in the day for prayer, so be it.

 

I believe Pope St. John Paul II said something along the lines of looking to Christ because he doesn't let us down, even when people do. Or maybe it was St. Paul who wrote about it. I am not sure at this very moment, because I took the rare moment to have a much needed stiff nightcap.

 

 

[4588686]

Hope I don't ruffle...up a friend...with a thin layer of Jesus spread on top...because...allegedly...it's still just Jesus flavoring...no matter how dedicated...our pet...is...to...our cultural elites...if you press some of these people they would dutifully recite...these squirmy issues...but probably their heart's not really in...the wall...That...Cardinal Burke...brings...and then adds a dolop of Jesus afterward to...me innocent

 

 

This is incoherent. What are you talking about?

Edited January 11, 2015 by Hasan

[Seven77]

Sometimes I wonder why many Catholics in “liberal" parishes are generally more welcoming then Catholics in "conservative" and even "orthodox" parishes. I don't get why some people are jerks and why others dissent. Where is the balance?

 

And then, I don't get the musical diversity and the lack of racial diversity that exists. It makes my mind reel.

 

 Another thing--- why did Pope Benedict step down and why did Pope Francis take his place?  I think I know the answer-- we have a lot of good teaching but people are still jerks. We didn't deserve Pope Benedict. We deserve Pope Francis. It serves us right.

 

 I hope this makes sense. Anyway, it seems to me that love is the only thing that makes sense.

[Nihil Obstat]

Sometimes I wonder why many Catholics in “liberal" parishes are generally more welcoming then Catholics in "conservative" and even "orthodox" parishes. I don't get why some people are jerks and why others dissent. Where is the balance?

 

And then, I don't get the musical diversity and the lack of racial diversity that exists. It makes my mind reel.

 

 Another thing--- why did Pope Benedict step down and why did Pope Francis take his place?  I think I know the answer-- we have a lot of good teaching but people are still jerks. We didn't deserve Pope Benedict. We deserve Pope Francis. It serves us right.

 

 I hope this makes sense. Anyway, it seems to me that love is the only thing that makes sense.

I dunno. The most welcoming parish I have ever been to, by far, is my traditional parish community.

[Seven77]

I dunno. The most welcoming parish I have ever been to, by far, is my traditional parish community.

 

 maybe it is… for people that look a certain way...

[Nihil Obstat]

maybe it is… for people that look a certain way...

Maybe you should just go ahead and say what you actually mean.

[Theoketos]

The most diverse parish I have ever visited was in Poteau Oklahoma. Minus the singing bass during the Homily it was awesome. 

[Maggyie]

How do other people's 'ideological faiths' affect you? Are there concrete effects, or is it more of a chronic spiritual malaise?

It's concrete in that it destroys the Church's credibility. When she is transformed into a political entity or a social service entity, she can no longer be that radical voice offering love and mercy and at the same time convicting consciences.

Some thoughts from Dorothy Day. She's a good example of what you're talking about, because she lived radically that different "organization of life" around love, but she also found that the more she did, it did not make things easier, but harder, because she had to live that love in an imperfect world and church:

Forever dealing with an imperfect church sounds scary but on this earth we've no choice eh. Dorothy used to annoy me but then I realized I was wrong. She and Oscar Romeo are two saints co-opted by the left the way St Pio and St Josemaria were co-opted by the right; but I shouldn't let these factions keep these saints as though they don't belong to me too.

For myself, I see it more as that I wasn't raised as Catholic first, but an American conservative. So I'm constantly fighting against the narrow view point of American Catholic. I'm trying to challenge myself that Catholicism isn't just my view point as a white, female, American.

I think, in my experience, that a lot of people are using Catholicism within the context of their own political or geographical experience, not thinking about how Catholicism isn't just lived through that view. But people don't often want to challenge/change their thinking about viewpoints, especially when it comes to hot topic issues and will resist Catholic thinking/teaching on those viewpoints, instead relying on their own political/geographical bias.

Does any of this make sense? :( Sorry if it's not.

It does make sense. I think part of my problem is the certainty people have about their ideas. That's where it changes for me from opinion to ideology. I feel like everyone is a law giver unto themselves. There's no humility and "well I could be wrong." Like 7 billion people in the world and 7 billion ideologies.

And yet again this is unfair because looking at my opinions, are there any I don't feel strongly about? Not really. I totally think I'm right. And yet I have changed my mind on things multiple times in my life and probably will again, which suggests I don't know what I'm talking about on a few things.

I feel like I came to an understanding recently. I do not km now if it will help you, but it makes me feel better in what I have felt to be an extremely hostile society these days.
That is that ideology will not save me. Politics will not save me. Economics will not save me. Only the grace through the Church will save my soul.
You know how I feel about traditionalism. I am passionate about the Mass because the Mass will save me. Anyway in terms of the trad Mass we do not have to get into that.
But the social justice stuff, the immigration and the economics and the Healthcare... I want to focus on being a good Catholic on my own micro level, and I feel like the rest will follow.
In my opinion that makes me stronger on the truly important issues like abortion because in my mind it does not have a political ideological component. The less important stuff, again, I think it just falls into place.
I simply want to focus on the essentials and let the Church's grace sort out the rest in me.

See when you say "truly important issues" that's ideology speaking. The Gospel doesnt rank stuff, rather a life based on the Gospel is lived so it's clear to outsiders that every part is the most important. The saying used in adoption circles that "love is not a pie" applies here. Just because we have more people to love does not mean each one has to settle for a smaller piece of your heart.

And I'm not saying from a practical perspective abortion is not the priority but realize there are lefties who would select other things as a priority, again based on ideological affinity. But both are wrong if they believe they are doing the truly big deal work and people without healthcare are less important or unborn children are less important. Edited January 12, 2015 by Maggie

[Maggyie]

Another thing--- why did Pope Benedict step down and why did Pope Francis take his place? I think I know the answer-- we have a lot of good teaching but people are still jerks. We didn't deserve Pope Benedict. We deserve Pope Francis. It serves us right.

I think you are right. And he will probably be a canonized saint one day. In the meantime though like many saints he gets my goat.

[BarbTherese]

I recall an address by a previous abbess of Jamberoo Monastery in New South Wales, Australia.  It has now, very sadly, been taken down from their website.  It ran something like this in part :

 

The very sister that annoys everyone so much by useless chatter is very often the one that is first to the assistance of anyone in any sort of need.  We are all saints and we are all sinners. 

 

I wonder what makes my failings and sinfulness less serious than another's?  Also there is a little story from the desert fathers:

A young monk had committed a very serious offence and was banned from choir for a month.  It was noticed that the abbot was also missing. Finally, his council decided to approach him and ask if he was ill and they went to his cell to enquire.  His reply was "I too am a sinner".

 

 

There are problems in The Church I am very much aware.  There always were and there always will be until Jesus Returns and once I can really internalize that, then there is no room for frustration nor disillusionment I don't think because I have adjusted my perspective and attitude about The Church.  The problems differ only in kind. The important point is to identify those problems correctly and then to consider if there is anything that I can do on a practical level as well as prayer. 

 

There are not only problems in The Church but within my own self too and the important thing is to identify them correctly and to consider what I can do about them as well as pray.

 

The Church is not a club for saints but a hospital for sinners

Mark 2:17
Jesus hearing this, saith to them: They that are well have no need of a physician, but they that are sick. For I came not to call the just, but sinners.

 

http://theaquilareport.com/hospital-for-sinners/

Jakob Dylan, front man of The Wallflowers penned these words in a song entitled, “Hospital for Sinners.”

 

Some have crosses bells that ring
Most have angels painted with wings
Old men and blind ones can find their way in
Got statues and apostles and other godly things

In desserts they build them of mortar and clay
In barrios they stick them by fire escapes
They outlast the setbacks of earthquakes and plagues
They burn them like haystacks and another one is raised

In the backwoods of the country and the empire state
Wherever there’s somebody at the crossroads that waits

At the junction of right now and a little too late
You’ll see one before you with wide open gates
It’s a hospital for sinners ain’t no museum of saints

 

There could be a casket, bums on the steps
A baby in a basket being left
It’s a good place to shuffle when you’ve gone through the deck
It’s the closest to heaven on earth you can get

It’s a shelter a poor man it’ll humble a great
It’s where derelicts and outlaws can hide for a day
The worst hearts you’ve known can be salvaged and saved
In the same room that lovers’ vows are exchanged
It’s a hospital for sinners ain’t no museum of saints

 

You’ll sin till you drop
Then ask to be saved
If it’s a comeback you want
Then get your hands raised

 

There’s more than a few on nearly every map
More than a couple alone on this path
You ought to be in one when you beg your way back
Cut off at the knees at its feet you’ll collapse
It’s a hospital for sinners ain’t no museum of saints
It’s a hospital for sinners ain’t no museum of saints

 

Edited January 12, 2015 by BarbaraTherese

[Nihil Obstat]

See when you say "truly important issues" that's ideology

I will have to disagree with you there. Scriptures and Tradition are clear that there is a hierarchy of virtues and as an extension of that there is a hierarchy of importance. Edited January 12, 2015 by Nihil Obstat

[BarbTherese]

If you read the story of Jesus cursing the fig tree and it withering away (Matthew Ch21), to my way of thought, Jesus was having a really bad day including the fact that he was hungry.  Jesus was in a really lousy mood and the fig tree was handy!

Jesus too knew frustration and disillusionment at times - and it seems to me that the temple too paid the price of his mood too, if you read Matthew Ch21. After all, He had been in the Temple many times without the reaction of violence and destruction, justified as it may have been.

Of course, all that is only my very fallible musings on a section of The Gospels! :)

 

Disillusionment and frustration is almost par for the course in Gospel living - it is what I do with my frustration and disillusionment that is important............without cursing or destruction hopefully  :)  Sometimes frustration and disillusionment is much more about me than what I think is the reason for these dispositions.

Edited January 12, 2015 by BarbaraTherese