4588686 Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 When you have kids who have to grow up in this country perhaps you'll understand why im a patriot. It's great to meet the only patriot on phatmass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 God forbid the enemy sneak in and engage in commerce without gubbmint permission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akalyte Posted January 20, 2015 Author Share Posted January 20, 2015 I know im not the only patriot... But ever since i started showing patriotism no one likes akalyte anymore. Light and truth, "plotting" what do you mean by that? I was compared to "timothy mcvey" once by a phatmasser on facebook. Why? I believe in freedom. I want my son to grow up in a free country. I believe in our founding documents. Whats wrong with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 I know im not the only patriot... But ever since i started showing patriotism no one likes akalyte anymore. Light and truth, "plotting" what do you mean by that? I was compared to "timothy mcvey" once by a phatmasser on facebook. Why? I believe in freedom. I want my son to grow up in a free country. I believe in our founding documents. Whats wrong with that? Right. I'm patriotic too. I also believe in the founding documents, although probably in a different way that you. And I want a free country. One can believe these things without thinking that you and your friends bopping around with night-vision goggles and AK-47s doing god knows what is a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amppax Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Right. I'm patriotic too. I also believe in the founding documents, although probably in a different way that you. And I want a free country. One can believe these things without thinking that you and your friends bopping around with night-vision goggles and AK-47s doing god knows what is a good idea. "You have reached your quota of positive votes for the day." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
An Historian Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 i was out on the texas/mexico border with a ak-47 and night vision trying to protect my country....what have you done? Have you been deputised by local authority, or sanctioned by the United States government to patrol an international border armed with assault weapons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Have you been deputised by local authority, or sanctioned by the United States government to patrol an international border armed with assault weapons? That's not the general government's place. You won't find it among their enumerated powers. The opinion of the local government is slightly less irrelevant, but one needn't obtain permission from a gang to organise and carry weapons. What is relevant to all is that the group is little better than the Blackshirts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
An Historian Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 (edited) That's not the general government's place. You won't find it among their enumerated powers. The opinion of the local government is slightly less irrelevant, but one needn't obtain permission from a gang to organise and carry weapons. What is relevant to all is that the group is little better than the Blackshirts. Well once again we surprisingly disagree as to the authority and limits of government and the state. But regardless, I simply asked the man a question. It may not be relevant to you, but it's relevant to me. If he's not authorised by any authority then his actions are simple vigilantism, which is incompatible with the Catholic faith as it usurps the God-given authority of the state over law and order, and national defence, etc. If, as it appears to be the case, he is engaging in vigilantism, then we have to ask, is there possibly a just reason for it? He says he is protecting his country, his family. Is he in geographical proximity to someone in physical danger of death because of the threat someone who is crossing the border is posing them? Or is his national defence someone arbitrary and ideological conception? Does he realise that he cannot kill an individual in defence of another based on a belief of what said individual may or may not do? You can't kill him for what he may or may not do, based solely upon his appearance and his crossing the border. Such would also be incompatible with the Catholic faith. Lastly, and most importantly, the question is, if a man is starving and steals a loaf of bread, for himself, or his child, is he stealing? "On the contrary, In cases of need all things are common property, so that there would seem to be no sin in taking another's property, for need has made it common. I answer that, Things which are of human right cannot derogate from natural right or Divine right. Now according to the natural order established by Divine Providence, inferior things are ordained for the purpose of succoring man's needs by their means. Wherefore the division and appropriation of things which are based on human law, do not preclude the fact that man's needs have to be remedied by means of these very things. Hence whatever certain people have in superabundance is due, by natural law, to the purpose of succoring the poor. For this reason Ambrose [Loc. cit., 2, Objection 3] says, and his words are embodied in the Decretals (Dist. xlvii, can. Sicut ii): "It is the hungry man's bread that you withhold, the naked man's cloak that you store away, the money that you bury in the earth is the price of the poor man's ransom and freedom." Since, however, there are many who are in need, while it is impossible for all to be succored by means of the same thing, each one is entrusted with the stewardship of his own things, so that out of them he may come to the aid of those who are in need. Nevertheless, if the need be so manifest and urgent, that it is evident that the present need must be remedied by whatever means be at hand (for instance when a person is in some imminent danger, and there is no other possible remedy), then it is lawful for a man to succor his own need by means of another's property, by taking it either openly or secretly: nor is this properly speaking theft or robbery." If a Mexican man cannot find work, and his wife is expecting their third child, and the family is starving, and there are no crops for them, and America is a stone's throw away, then that fellow has every God given right to cross that border and pursue employment, even illegally, because the law ceases to hold any merit at that point. The state's authority is suspended. And any individual that would interfere with this fellow would be offending against his natural rights and the dominion of God over all creation, Whom has appointed us as mere stewards of what naturally belongs to Him by right, So, I contend that no Catholic should be engaging in illicit border patrols, nor even legal border controls, as it offends against the natural rights of individuals and the sovereignty of God over His creation. Edited January 20, 2015 by An Historian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Defense of others is vigilantism unless one wears a magic badge from an entity that seized power through threat of violence. I missed that in the Depositum Fidei. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 So, I contend that no Catholic should be engaging in illicit border patrols, nor even legal border controls, as it offends against the natural rights of individuals and the sovereignty of God over His creation. Here we agree. Well, we agree insofar as you took this position in contradiction of your opening, which was in support of totalitarianism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
An Historian Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Here we agree. Well, we agree insofar as you took this position in contradiction of your opening, which was in support of totalitarianism. There is no contradiction in my position. The state has authority over law and order, defence of its borders, and even knowing who is coming in and out of the country. This authority is by divine mandate. But there are caveats. I have never stated that the state has absolute authority or that it is impeccable. I believe that the state is a steward of God's creation, but individuals have specific natural rights which no earthly authority can terminate. Nor is the above instance of defending another vigilantism because the law deputises an individual to defend another life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 There is no contradiction in my position. The state has authority over law and order, defence of its borders, and even knowing who is coming in and out of the country. This authority is by divine mandate. But there are caveats. I have never stated that the state has absolute authority or that it is impeccable. I believe that the state is a steward of God's creation, but individuals have specific natural rights which no earthly authority can terminate. Nor is the above instance of defending another vigilantism because the law deputises an individual to defend another life. Law existed prior to and independent of the state, and modern states no longer deal with law, but instead solely with legislation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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