Here Is A Thread Noone Who Isn't A Mediator Of Meh Can Comment On

[franciscanheart]

I'm not certain that discussions of "feminine" and "masculine" need boil down to mere stereotyped gender roles. Think of them as two poles on a continuum, each extreme analogous to Platonic forms. 
 
It seems apparent to me that we all have some notion of masculinity and femininity. There is a tendency to think of the feminine as somehow weaker. That can make the use of the word appear to be an insult, when no insult is intended. It's really messy territory, very difficult to handle properly. The temptation to deny the existence of masculine or feminine because no one person fits entirely into one category or another shouldn't be indulged.
 
It's possible that women or men are largely not called en masse to a particular profession because there really truly are differences between the sexes. It's also possible that cultural influences increase or decrease the frequency of these "callings". I think it's both of these things. It's also possible that different types of masses could in general appeal to one sex or the other. I don't care for the hand-holding stuff. I happen to have a gentleman sausage. There is a woman who is a blood relation who also doesn't care for the hand-holding. On the whole, that person is a Philistine, so it might be her aversion to elaborate masses, rather than the fact that she, being a single parent seeking jobs dominated by men, has somehow tipped the scales into masculine traits.
 
Who knows.

So rape is more feminine in nature?

[franciscanheart]

Are you suggesting that someone who emphasizes community won't make a good scientist?
Are you suggesting someone who emphasizes self sacrifice won't make a good nurse?
 
My guess is not.
 
But the fact that sex-linked characteristics are misused that way doesn't mean they don't exist. Females, in general, are geared for community building, males for physical effort and vertical power. It goes back to evolutionary biology.

So we should definitely leave community-building out of parish life? Makes great sense.

[Winchester]

So rape is more feminine in nature?

 

I wouldn't think so. But I think that's probably arbitrary on my part.

 

I've not developed a worldview based on what is masculine or feminine, I've just sort of gone along with what everyone else says. I stick my oar in the water when I see a large obstacle, but for the most part, I just kind of drift along.

[ChristianGirlForever]

Obviously, you hate women.

I propped this, thinking it was a joke, but I'm still getting used to Phatmass humor, so maybe I was wrong?

[PhuturePriest]

So Cardinal Burke's ideas of 'feminization' are based on a gender stereotype about what it means to be a woman. That's what I was getting at. And this stereotype is valid because...? At the Last Supper John reclined on the breast of Jesus throughout the meal, which is far more intimate than anything that happens at the modern Mass - was that 'feminization'? What about priests and deacons who exchange the kiss of peace during the EF Mass? It's not 'feminization' when priests embrace each other, but it is 'feminization' when people shake hands?

 

The stereotypes you're touting here are the reasons why aspiring women scientists used to be held back, and why boys were deterred from pursuing careers like nursing. There's no logical basis to any of them. "This is the definition, take it or leave it" sounds a lot like "This is the definition, don't argue", but some people aren't going to just swallow that uncritically - especially not given the ideas about child abuse that the Cardinal tacks onto this definition, which you haven't addressed. However, you did say you agree with the article, so I assume you're OK with the idea that child sexual abuse occurs when men are "too feminine", as though abuse was completely unheard of before handshakes started appearing in the Mass. I think attitudes like that are going to do a bit more to scare people away from church than the things you're fearing, as they don't say much for our ability to protect vulnerable people from harm.

 

I don't care if you take issue with the idea of "feminine" and "masculine", though I think it's rather foolish to think there aren't any concrete differences between men and women other than penises and vaginas. Men and women think differently, and this is a scientific fact. Are some an exception to the rule? Yes. But there's an exception to every rule. It's not logical to say "It can't be true that women are physically weaker than men, because I know y, and she makes Rambo look like a pansy." Exceptions do not negate general facts. It's not logical to conclude that men and women are the same physically because your one friend can bench press a bus full of kids, or because your guy friend watches romantic comedies with a tissue box and cries the whole time. Exceptions do not negate hypotheses, especially when the hypothesis has become so documented that it's a lot more than just a mere theory. But that's essentially what you're doing: "I/my friend don't fit this stereotype of women being more communal, therefore it must be wrong." It's not intellectually honest. Most guys aren't black belts and do not write songs to creep people out for comic effect; however, I fit both those things. That doesn't negate the fact that most guys aren't like that, it means I'm an exception to the rule. When there's an overwhelming consensus to a particular stereotype, that stereotype becomes less of a stereotype and more of a serious thing to be considered. Not to be shunned, but to be used as a tool to help us understand ourselves and as a result help society work more effectively.

[Lilllabettt]

So we should definitely leave community-building out of parish life? Makes great sense.

 

Um no. that's binary thinking. Open your mind.

Building the horizontal element does not mean diminishing the vertical element. That's what has happened in recent history. But it doesn't have to be that way. 

[PhuturePriest]

So we should definitely leave community-building out of parish life? Makes great sense.

 

But you've hit it, FranciscanHeart: The communal instinct of women is vital to parishes. Without it, there wouldn't be parishes, there would merely be buildings we went to once a week to have Mass. The communal instinct in women and sacrificial instinct of men are complimentary to each other, particularly in parishes. We just need to make sure they are placed where they are meant to be. The Mass should be Christ-centric, not community-centric. It should not be about us, but solely on the Sacrifice. However, parishes should most certainly be communal. There should be parish events and a thriving community. Each thing, the Sacrifice of the Mass and the thriving community life, are complimentary and even in a way dependent upon each other. Without nurturing the community, there will be no people to worship at the foot of the Altar. Without the Mass, there's no reason for the parish in the first place. They are complimentary and vital to each other, and each one is important. They are most certainly not opposed to each other, and neither side should ever feel unimportant or thrown to the side.

Edited January 8, 2015 by PhuturePriest

[Winchester]

The problem with Burke's interview is that it comes across as whinging. But then again, it's an interview. Moreover, it's been edited by people who use the term "emangelization". Even if his ideas aren't goofy, the chance of running his words through the filter of the sort of person who uses the term "emangelization" and getting anything that isn't nuts are pretty slim.

 

Add to this the general antagonism of anything with the faintest whiff of feminism among members of the Church who fancy themselves "traditional", and we've set the stage for conflict. 

 

If men really wanted a role in the Church, they'd overcome the world and just do it. Truth is, they've been phoning it in for years. It's nothing new.

[franciscanheart]

Um no. that's binary thinking. Open your mind.
Building the horizontal element does not mean diminishing the vertical element. That's what has happened in recent history. But it doesn't have to be that way.

Time necessitates that I be brief but... I think that's all we've been saying all along. There is no need to focus solely on men or women; both can be addressed at the same time. Both can also be respected and cherished and dignified simultaneously. It's not one or the other, it's both.
 

I don't care if you take issue with the idea of "feminine" and "masculine", though I think it's rather foolish to think there aren't any concrete differences between men and women other than penises and vaginas. Men and women think differently, and this is a scientific fact. Are some an exception to the rule? Yes. But there's an exception to every rule. It's not logical to say "It can't be true that women are physically weaker than men, because I know y, and she makes Rambo look like a pansy." Exceptions do not negate general facts. It's not logical to conclude that men and women are the same physically because your one friend can bench press a bus full of kids, or because your guy friend watches romantic comedies with a tissue box and cries the whole time. Exceptions do not negate hypotheses, especially when the hypothesis has become so documented that it's a lot more than just a mere theory. But that's essentially what you're doing: "I/my friend don't fit this stereotype of women being more communal, therefore it must be wrong." It's not intellectually honest. Most guys aren't black belts and do not write songs to creep people out for comic effect; however, I fit both those things. That doesn't negate the fact that most guys aren't like that, it means I'm an exception to the rule. When there's an overwhelming consensus to a particular stereotype, that stereotype becomes less of a stereotype and more of a serious thing to be considered. Not to be shunned, but to be used as a tool to help us understand ourselves and as a result help society work more effectively.

Saying that men don't have feelings are incapable of emotion and connection is not helping your point at all. We're in 2015; men are allowed to feel and be soft. Please don't be ridiculous. Edited January 8, 2015 by franciscanheart

[Winchester]

They say it happens to everyone, at some point. Not me. But that's what they say.

[PhuturePriest]

Time necessitates that I be brief but... I think that's all we've been saying all along. There is no need to focus solely on men or women; both can be addressed at the same time. Both can also be respected and cherished and dignified simultaneously. It's not one or the other, it's both.
 
Saying that men don't have feelings are incapable of emotion and connection is not helping your point at all. We're in 2014; men are allowed to feel and be soft. Please don't be ridiculous.

 

Nowhere did I say men are incapable of emotion or shouldn't display it. You're grasping at straws.

[Winchester]

Nowhere did I say men are incapable of emotion or shouldn't display it. You're grasping at straws.

 

I'm not sure if you're brave or stupid.

[Lilllabettt]

Time necessitates that I be brief but... I think that's all we've been saying all along. There is no need to focus solely on men or women; both can be addressed at the same time. Both can also be respected and cherished and dignified simultaneously. It's not one or the other, it's both.

 

 

Yeah, well I  think Burke's interview is a heavily edited superheated overblown version of saying that there has been way too much emphasis on the communal aspect and there needs to be more attention paid to the vertical. Because what weve been doing is a huge turn off to both men and women, but especially men. 

[Lil Red]

The problem with Burke's interview is that it comes across as whinging. But then again, it's an interview. Moreover, it's been edited by people who use the term "emangelization". Even if his ideas aren't goofy, the chance of running his words through the fiddler of the sort of person who uses the term "emangelization" and getting anything that isn't nuts are pretty slim.

 

Add to this the general antagonism of anything with the faintest whiff of feminism among members of the Church who fancy themselves "traditional", and we've set the stage for conflict. 

 

If men really wanted a role in the Church, they'd overcome the world and just do it. Truth is, they've been phoning it in for years. It's nothing new.

 

props

[Lil Red]

They say it happens to everyone, at some point. Not me. But that's what they say.

 

Some say that he thinks crisps are animals... and that if he'd done well at Wimbledon, once in a while he might be able to raise a smile... All we know is, he's called the Stig!