Here Is A Thread Noone Who Isn't A Mediator Of Meh Can Comment On

[PhuturePriest]

I stood up in my office and clapped for this post. 

 

Did your coworkers ask if you'd been drinking wine? Because I would've. Clapping at computer screens is not generally considered normal behavior. Then again, I get my kicks off of all sorts of unorthodox things, so perhaps I'm not one to judge.

Edited January 8, 2015 by PhuturePriest

[PhuturePriest]

ruh-roh shaggy. 

 

[4588686]

Yeah, he should know by now the unwritten rules of phat-arse:

 

Personal insults against the Catholic hierarchy (particularly orthodox members), or against the Catholic/Christian Faith = GOOD

 

Speaking against anti-Catholic trolls = BAD

 

 

Because being politically correct is just cooler than hell.

 

I get personally insulted and suspended all the time. I know for a fact that I've been warned/punished on this board way more than you have. Maybe you don't notice because I don't whine about it and make my every fifth post about how the politically correct powers that be are putting me down because I'm the victim and the world is so cruel and unfair ;'(

 

If only there was a political philosophy out there that encouraged people to roll with the punches and avoid classifying themselves as victims all the time. That political philosophy sure could have a lot to say to people like you who have a weird need to feel victimized.

 

Hmmmmmm

[beatitude]

I think you're reading what you're inclined to read. Granted, I could be doing the same, but I in no way saw him blame women for this. He says the Liturgy has become too feminized, but that doesn't mean women did it, it means men feminized it in the hopes of making it more accessible to everyone. You can disagree with that, but that's what he said. He doesn't blame women, and he doesn't say they are the problem.

 

And what exactly is this awful 'feminized liturgy'? What does a feminized Mass look like, as opposed to a masculine manly Mass? Secondly, Basilisa's problem is that words like 'feminine' and 'feminized' are clearly derogatory in this context - it doesn't matter whether Burke is holding women responsible for the supposed 'feminization' or not, it matters that 'feminization' is a dirty word for him. And not just a dirty word - he has made the dangerous and disgusting claim that child rape and sexual abuse happens because men are 'feminized'. That is why women are upset (and why anyone who cares an ounce about child protection is likely to be upset and worried, too). If you can't grasp that, and you honestly think that the bad reaction here is all because of you, then I hope you never get near a pulpit or anywhere your opinions are likely to carry any weight.

[PhuturePriest]

And what exactly is this awful 'feminized liturgy'? What does a feminized Mass look like, as opposed to a masculine manly Mass? Secondly, Basilisa's problem is that words like 'feminine' and 'feminized' are clearly derogatory in this context - it doesn't matter whether Burke is holding women responsible for the supposed 'feminization' or not, it matters that 'feminization' is a dirty word for him. And not just a dirty word - he has made the dangerous and disgusting claim that child rape and sexual abuse happens because men are 'feminized'. That is why women are upset (and why anyone who cares an ounce about child protection is likely to be upset and worried, too). If you can't grasp that, and you honestly think that the bad reaction here is all because of you, then I hope you never get near a pulpit or anywhere your opinions are likely to carry any weight.

 

This is the explanation of "feminized" vs. "masculine" Mass. You may disagree with it, but for the love of all that is good and holy do not turn this into a liturgical debate.

 

The definition kind of comes from gender roles. Women cared for the community and kept peace and harmony, and they had a very big emphasis on community. Men, on the other hand, were the ones who laid their lives down in protection of that community. Christ participated in this in that he laid his life down for us. The "masculine" Liturgy is one that focuses on Christ and his sacrifice; it is Christ-centric throughout the entire Liturgy without fail. A "feminine" Mass is one which has a large focus (or focuses entirely, in some cases) on the community: There's a big emphasis on holding hands, sometimes the Priest will tell the congregation as Mass begins to shake each other's hands and introduce yourself to your neighbor (which I have witnessed firsthand way too many times), etc. It is "feminine" because it focuses on that feminine aspect of the gender role: Community. The "masculine" Mass is masculine because it focuses on Christ's sacrifice and does not whatsoever on the community.

 

That's the definition. Take it or leave it, that's what it means and why.

[4588686]

This is the explanation of "feminized" vs. "masculine" Mass. You may disagree with it, but for the love of all that is good and holy do not turn this into a liturgical debate.

 

The definition kind of comes from gender roles. Women cared for the community and kept peace and harmony, and they had a very big emphasis on community. Men, on the other hand, were the ones who laid their lives down in protection of that community. Christ participated in this in that he laid his life down for us. The "masculine" Liturgy is one that focuses on Christ and his sacrifice; it is Christ-centric throughout the entire Liturgy without fail. A "feminine" Mass is one which has a large focus (or focuses entirely, in some cases) on the community: There's a big emphasis on holding hands, sometimes the Priest will tell the congregation as Mass begins to shake each other's hands and introduce yourself to your neighbor (which I have witnessed firsthand way too many times), etc. It is "feminine" because it focuses on that feminine aspect of the gender role: Community. The "masculine" Mass is masculine because it focuses on Christ's sacrifice and does not whatsoever on the community.

 

That's the definition. Take it or leave it, that's what it means and why.

 

 

hahaha ur rite beeshes do love to talk lolz 

Edited January 8, 2015 by Hasan

[4588686]

womn always yak yak yak blah blah blah but dudes don't do that cuz there i the gym u don't talk to other bros in the gym you focus on ur lyfts but beshs alwayz talkin to each other like sayin ;ets make a picnic and talk sum more but bros don't they're just liftin w8s only time dudes picnic is if there gonna go outside to eat b4 they wrestle dudes love to wrestle just broin it out on the ground and wrestlin around and feelin ur buddyz strength hez strong but u still pin him and its awesome cuz he can'tget up frum under u

 

#brosbeinbros

 

[PhuturePriest]

hahaha ur rite beeshes do love to talk lolz 

 

You're just so cool and hip. Everyone's gonna be propping your posts. Even I'm going to against my will, 'cause you're just that cool and relevant.

[4588686]

. . . not to mention doing manly "real work" for a living like begging for money for left-wing politicians and organizations, and spending all one's free time engaged in rugged he-man pursuits like insulting other people behind the anonymous security of one's laptop.

 

Okay, enough feeding the troll.

 

lulz watever u dont no how 2 be a real man i go to the gym n lyft all tha time u culdnt fight me or even wreastle me weed go outsid n u'd try 2 wreastle me but i'd slip around n pin u n u'd try 2 get up but ud just be puhin back againt my souperior streangth

Edited January 8, 2015 by Hasan

[4588686]

[beatitude]

This is the explanation of "feminized" vs. "masculine" Mass. You may disagree with it, but for the love of all that is good and holy do not turn this into a liturgical debate.

 

The definition kind of comes from gender roles. Women cared for the community and kept peace and harmony, and they had a very big emphasis on community. Men, on the other hand, were the ones who laid their lives down in protection of that community. Christ participated in this in that he laid his life down for us. The "masculine" Liturgy is one that focuses on Christ and his sacrifice; it is Christ-centric throughout the entire Liturgy without fail. A "feminine" Mass is one which has a large focus (or focuses entirely, in some cases) on the community: There's a big emphasis on holding hands, sometimes the Priest will tell the congregation as Mass begins to shake each other's hands and introduce yourself to your neighbor (which I have witnessed firsthand way too many times), etc. It is "feminine" because it focuses on that feminine aspect of the gender role: Community. The "masculine" Mass is masculine because it focuses on Christ's sacrifice and does not whatsoever on the community.

 

That's the definition. Take it or leave it, that's what it means and why.

 

So Cardinal Burke's ideas of 'feminization' are based on a gender stereotype about what it means to be a woman. That's what I was getting at. And this stereotype is valid because...? At the Last Supper John reclined on the breast of Jesus throughout the meal, which is far more intimate than anything that happens at the modern Mass - was that 'feminization'? What about priests and deacons who exchange the kiss of peace during the EF Mass? It's not 'feminization' when priests embrace each other, but it is 'feminization' when people shake hands?

 

The stereotypes you're touting here are the reasons why aspiring women scientists used to be held back, and why boys were deterred from pursuing careers like nursing. There's no logical basis to any of them. "This is the definition, take it or leave it" sounds a lot like "This is the definition, don't argue", but some people aren't going to just swallow that uncritically - especially not given the ideas about child abuse that the Cardinal tacks onto this definition, which you haven't addressed. However, you did say you agree with the article, so I assume you're OK with the idea that child sexual abuse occurs when men are "too feminine", as though abuse was completely unheard of before handshakes started appearing in the Mass. I think attitudes like that are going to do a bit more to scare people away from church than the things you're fearing, as they don't say much for our ability to protect vulnerable people from harm.

[ChristianGirlForever]

I don't get why everyone is so offended and angry, I must have read this much differently than everyone else. There's definitely some flaws, but I don't get this reaction.

I don't get it, either, Amppax. They must have read a different interview!

[Lil Red]

Did your coworkers ask if you'd been drinking wine? Because I would've. Clapping at computer screens is not generally considered normal behavior. Then again, I get my kicks off of all sorts of unorthodox things, so perhaps I'm not one to judge.

 

I work from home and the cats don't care. 

[Winchester]

I'm not certain that discussions of "feminine" and "masculine" need boil down to mere stereotyped gender roles. Think of them as two poles on a continuum, each extreme analogous to Platonic forms. 

 

It seems apparent to me that we all have some notion of masculinity and femininity. There is a tendency to think of the feminine as somehow weaker. That can make the use of the word appear to be an insult, when no insult is intended. It's really messy territory, very difficult to handle properly. The temptation to deny the existence of masculine or feminine because no one person fits entirely into one category or another shouldn't be indulged.

 

It's possible that women or men are largely not called en masse to a particular profession because there really truly are differences between the sexes. It's also possible that cultural influences increase or decrease the frequency of these "callings". I think it's both of these things. It's also possible that different types of masses could in general appeal to one sex or the other. I don't care for the hand-holding stuff. I happen to have a gentleman sausage. There is a woman who is a blood relation who also doesn't care for the hand-holding. On the whole, that person is a Philistine, so it might be her aversion to elaborate masses, rather than the fact that she, being a single parent seeking jobs dominated by men, has somehow tipped the scales into masculine traits.

 

Who knows.

[Lilllabettt]

The stereotypes you're touting here are the reasons why aspiring women scientists used to be held back, and why boys were deterred from pursuing careers like nursing. 

 

 

Are you suggesting that someone who emphasizes community won't make a good scientist?

Are you suggesting someone who emphasizes self sacrifice won't make a good nurse?

 

My guess is not.

 

But the fact that sex-linked characteristics are misused that way doesn't mean they don't exist. Females, in general, are geared for community building, males for physical effort and vertical power. It goes back to evolutionary biology.