Here Is A Thread Noone Who Isn't A Mediator Of Meh Can Comment On

[Era Might]

[Norseman82]

I've expressed this before, but masculinity also refers to "masculine values", which is something that females need as well.  Case in point:  being assertive, ready to confront wrong, and able to stand by a decision rather than giving in to "keep the peace".  How will people get the practice to say "No" to their childern? 

 

Does it have implications for the practice of our faith - of course!  Look at any discussion on the mess known as Catholic Answers forum reagarding dealing with immoral livestyles of people close to us - the main concern is "keeping the relationship", despite the fact that Christ Himself stated that He came to set family members against each other. 

 

One thing I wish were explored more is the relationship between the issue of men leaving the Church and the decline in marriage - dare I say, hostility to marriage in some cases!  Except for college age groups, many singles ministries (except for the National Catholic Singles Conference) are dominated by divorced women, so some of their comments and talks no doubt will be influenced by those experiences.  It may be helpful when dealing with other divorced women, and it may be helpful when giving warning signs of a problem relationship or spouse, or how to survive and grow into an old lady alone because you may not be able to remarry within the Church, but it is wrong to try to turn healthy young (and not so young!) men into old ladies before their time.  I just want to tell them "look, I'm sorry that you couldn't keep your mariage together, but don't rain on my parade!".  Add to that the whole "you don't need a man" mentality that came of age in the 1970s along with the rise of the "career woman", guess what happens?  Men cannot find compatible spouses in the Catholic Church, so they go elsewhere to find what they need, whether it be another denomination, an immoral lifestyle, or a marriage that violates Church law.   And before some self-righteous clod starts to judge them by saying that their faith was weak to begin with, please remember a key lesson from the story of Jacob and Esau in Genesis:  when people are starving, they will sell their birthright just to get a bite to eat. 

[Norseman82]

Maybe it's all the irritable jack***es who blame women instead of themselves for their lack of charm.

 

So you are calling the hierarchy a bunch of irritable **** who have a lack of charm? 

Edited January 7, 2015 by Norseman82

[Winchester]

So you are calling the hierarchy a bunch of irritable **** who have a lack of charm? 

Bless your heart.

[Norseman82]

Bless your heart.

 

And may your spleen be enriched by the vowels of a thousand Poles. :whistle:

Edited January 7, 2015 by Norseman82

[Era Might]

One thing I wish were explored more is the relationship between the issue of men leaving the Church and the decline in marriage - dare I say, hostility to marriage in some cases!  Except for college age groups, many singles ministries (except for the National Catholic Singles Conference) are dominated by divorced women, so some of their comments and talks no doubt will be influenced by those experiences.  It may be helpful when dealing with other divorced women, and it may be helpful when giving warning signs of a problem relationship or spouse, or how to survive and grow into an old lady alone because you may not be able to remarry within the Church, but it is wrong to try to turn healthy young (and not so young!) men into old ladies before their time.  I just want to tell them "look, I'm sorry that you couldn't keep your mariage together, but don't rain on my parade!".  Add to that the whole "you don't need a man" mentality that came of age in the 1970s along with the rise of the "career woman", guess what happens?  Men cannot find compatible spouses in the Catholic Church, so they go elsewhere to find what they need, whether it be another denomination, an immoral lifestyle, or a marriage that violates Church law.   And before some self-righteous clod starts to judge them by saying that their faith was weak to begin with, please remember a key lesson from the story of Jacob and Esau in Genesis:  when people are starving, they will sell their birthright just to get a bite to eat. 

 

Frustration is part of being human. How many men get married and have to beat themselves senseless because they married an incompatible woman. People who are in a relationship want out, and those who are out want in. There's a reason why love is such a major human topic..it rarely happens, and when it does, it rarely lasts. Such is life. People have always gotten along in different ways...keeping up appearances in "family life," not bothering with family life, becoming a priest (and keeping a family on the side), etc. Nobody will ever satisfy anyone else...people make do with their circumstances. Goethe wrote that we commit some folly just to live on a little...we throw ourselves into what frustrates us most, and then realize the illusion was never real anyway.

[An Historian]

I was hoping that a old virgin whose jobs revolves around wearing fancy, colorful robes and living off the charity of people who actually work for a living would tell me how to be a real man.

I really don't quite understand you, or why your profanity is tolerated here. You mock and belittle Catholicism to no ends yet you're treated like a beloved pet by so many. If I had a parrot that perpetually blasphemed the Blesses Virgin I would not keep it in my house, but even the condescension of those I do know to be observant Catholics gives you far too much credit. Your posts are disgusting, your views and opinions do not have any right to exist and God speed the day when you abandon them.

Please stop posting on this forum. You will only serve to lower the tone of conversation, and your profanity is an occasion of sin for myself and I do not doubt for others. Edited January 7, 2015 by An Historian

[Amppax]

I really don't quite understand you, or why your profanity is tolerated here. You mock and belittle Catholicism to no ends yet you're treated like a beloved pet by so many. If I had a parrot that perpetually blasphemed the Blesses Virgin I would not keep it in my house, but even the condescension of those I do know to be observant Catholics gives you far too much credit. Your posts are disgusting, your views and opinions do not have any right to exist and God speed the day when you abandon them.

Please stop posting on this forum. You will only serve to lower the tone of conversation, and your profanity is an occasion of sin for myself and I do not doubt for others.

 

Apparently the forum guidelines don't exist anymore, but if they did I'd drop the link here for you, because I think this is out of line. I'm missing the profanity in his statement, but other than that, Phatmass isn't meant to be an insular community of Catholics. I'm sorry you feel that way. Hasan has been here a long time. Yes, he's critical, and yes he can be vulgar at times, but he also brings a lot to this community. Maybe you haven't seen that, he's only posted sporadically in the past year or so. 

 

Also, I'm amused that you are so challenged by his views. You could, I don't know, engage them critically, instead of respond by dismissing them. You know, take the high ground. 

[4588686]

And what is your problem with old virgins?  Or do you equate being a "real man" with being immoral and promiscuous? 

 

<overcompensating statement>

 

 

I just find it obnoxious that some dude who has never been in the real world feels like he's in some position to have anything worthwhile to say about how all those other men out there who, you know, actually are married, have to negotiate the complexities of a serious romantic relationship, working a job they probably don't like very much et cetera are failing to be real men. 

 

There's nothing wrong with being a virgin. But maybe if you haven't been in a relationship, have only ever lived being supported by other people, blah blah blah then maybe you should recognize that maybe you aren't in the best position to talk about how all those other people out there aren't doing it right. 

 

When Cardinal Burke goes out there and has to try to be a good romantic partner while working a job that doesn't involve complete lifestyle security while being called 'your eminence' all the time then he might have something worthwhile to say. Until then he should stick to talking about theology or lighting candles or whatever it is that he's doing while all the people whose contributions are financing his lifestyle are working. 

[An Historian]

Apparently the forum guidelines don't exist anymore, but if they did I'd drop the link here for you, because I think this is out of line. I'm missing the profanity in his statement, but other than that, Phatmass isn't meant to be an insular community of Catholics. I'm sorry you feel that way. Hasan has been here a long time. Yes, he's critical, and yes he can be vulgar at times, but he also brings a lot to this community. Maybe you haven't seen that, he's only posted sporadically in the past year or so.

Also, I'm amused that you are so challenged by his views. You could, I don't know, engage them critically, instead of respond by dismissing them. You know, take the high ground.

I am not challenged by his views. This gives him more credit than he's due. His posts are riddled with profanity in that he continually mocks our faith. He's not a worthwhile contributor to this forum. He is not a serious opponent, a genuine enquirer or even just a benevolent onlooker.

He's a cretin and a profaner and if he ever at any time brought forward a serious and worthy contribution to this forum then those days are long gone.

If he is the type of poster this community values then I'll simply say goodbye now. This forum will be a poison to the spiritual advancement of Catholics as long as this troll is glorified, both by those like yourself and others that tolerate him even in their opposition to him.

Well, Cheerio. God bless.

[Amppax]

I think that priests can have something worthwhile to say. Maybe they haven't been in a relationship, but, as a pastor, I can imagine most have seen numerous relationships, some good and some bad, and can provide a broader perspective than your average Joe could. It's a different perspective, but not without value. 

[Amppax]

I am not challenged by his views. This gives him more credit than he's due. His posts are riddled with profanity in that he continually mocks our faith. He's not a worthwhile contributor to this forum. He is not a serious opponent, a genuine enquirer or even just a benevolent onlooker.

He's a cretin and a profaner and if he ever at any time brought forward a serious and worthy contribution to this forum then those days are long gone.

If he is the type of poster this community values then I'll simply say goodbye now. This forum will be a poison to the spiritual advancement of Catholics as long as this troll is glorified, both by those like yourself and others that tolerate him even in their opposition to him.

Well, Cheerio. God bless.

 

Bye! 

[4588686]

I think that priests can have something worthwhile to say. Maybe they haven't been in a relationship, but, as a pastor, I can imagine most have seen numerous relationships, some good and some bad, and can provide a broader perspective than your average Joe could. It's a different perspective, but not without value. 

 

Definitely. I think Priests can have a lot of things to say that are of value about life. If a Franciscan Friar of the Renewal wanted to talked about poverty and community I'd listen quite intently. I know Priests who can make Catholic proposals based on their experiences without having Burke's obnoxious, in my opinion, tone. What really annoyed me about his comments were things like this

 

"All those things are good in themselves, but there has been a loss of balance. The home life in which children spend adequate time with parents has been lost for many families. Families have stopped enjoying meals together. I remember how my father gave us lessons and taught us manners at the dinner table. To spend time talking with my parents was very important to my growing up. When I was a young priest, I was saddened that parents and children told me that fathers and children rarely talked and, when they did, it was only briefly.

Families should have at least one meal together each week where the whole family is together. A boy or young man is unlikely to build proper manly identity and the manly virtues unless he lives with a father and mother, where he can witness that unique and complementary interaction between the male and the female in a home life in which human life can be welcomed, nurtured and developed."

 

I think it's obnoxious for some guy who has never had a grinding job that he really doesn't like and is more or less completely isolated from the market and the everyday anxieties and stresses that normal people face and has lived his whole life being supported by other people feels like he has a right to complain that people aren't having enough family meals. Most people who I know who don't eat together as a family do so because the parents are working 70 hour weeks or pulling third shift at some awful job they hate so they can give their kids a college education or whatever. 

[Basilisa Marie]

I mostly agree with Franciscanheart.  Most of the time I like Burke, I appreciate his experience and try to give him the benefit of the doubt. Lots of what he's saying here is good, but he also falls into a lot of tired old stereotypes and excuses.

 

Like, the Church focusing on women automatically means it's not focusing on men. That's like saying we can't come out with a new translation of the mass while also dealing with the sex abuse crisis. Men make up the vast majority of people in theological academia, and the entirety of the Church's hierarchy. Women even being involved in theology on a significant scale is a very, VERY recent phenomenon in the Church. Women theologians were the exceptions, not the rule.  If there's a problem with a lack of theology of masculinity or a lack of focus on men, well, sorry boys, you only have your selves to blame, and it's rather Adam-like to try to pass the buck off to women trying to get their problems heard. 

 

He also mentions how fathers have more distant relationships with their children, because that's "natural" or whatever. I don't buy it. It's just playing into the stereotype of the perfect Catholic family where the Mom stays home and is emotional and squishy and says "wait til your Father comes home" if you do something wrong and "I'll talk to your Father" if you want something and think he'll say no, while the Dad goes to work all day and comes home and makes all the decisions, is cold and distant, and drinks scotch by the fireplace before leading the family in their nightly prayers. It doesn't resonate with actual lived experience, except maybe the experiences of a select minority. 
 

I like that he's trying to talk about the problems of figuring out what it means to be a man in today's world, because that's a huge issue that tackles a number of problems, and quite important.  But I'm not going to let you sit there and blame the "radical feminists" when it's been a supermajority of men doing theology and populating the hierarchy. Men are the ones with power to actually set the agenda, so... set the damn agenda. 

[4588686]

Parents don't eat enough meals with their kids and have them go to piano practice instead because they don't have Cardinal Burke's balanced perspective. Or maybe it's because those parents are watching the labor market become ever more hollowed out and desperately want to give their kids the opportunity for a life that doesn't involve perpetual income insecurity. 

 

A lot of his general observations are fine. But it would be nice if in reading them you got the impression that he understood that most people don't live in a world where your job involves bopping around while people call you by honorific titles all day and where being fired involves retaining your secure lifestyle and getting appointed to be patron of some make-believe knights. 

 

I guess that he probably would have come off better if he had maybe said, 'look, I recognize that I live an incredibly rarified life and that times have changed and we live in a world where both parents often have to work full-time just to make ends meet but I think the Church should remind people that it's important to keep perspective on what really matters blah blah blah' 

 

But his remarks just came off as smug to me. Like people are working long hours instead of having family meal time and making sure their kids have good table manners because they don't lack his balanced, healthy perspective on life.