Here Is A Thread Noone Who Isn't A Mediator Of Meh Can Comment On

[beatitude]

I don't care if you take issue with the idea of "feminine" and "masculine", though I think it's rather foolish to think there aren't any concrete differences between men and women other than penises and vaginas. Men and women think differently, and this is a scientific fact. Are some an exception to the rule? Yes. But there's an exception to every rule. It's not logical to say "It can't be true that women are physically weaker than men, because I know y, and she makes Rambo look like a pansy." Exceptions do not negate general facts. It's not logical to conclude that men and women are the same physically because your one friend can bench press a bus full of kids, or because your guy friend watches romantic comedies with a tissue box and cries the whole time. Exceptions do not negate hypotheses, especially when the hypothesis has become so documented that it's a lot more than just a mere theory. But that's essentially what you're doing: "I/my friend don't fit this stereotype of women being more communal, therefore it must be wrong." It's not intellectually honest. Most guys aren't black belts and do not write songs to creep people out for comic effect; however, I fit both those things. That doesn't negate the fact that most guys aren't like that, it means I'm an exception to the rule. When there's an overwhelming consensus to a particular stereotype, that stereotype becomes less of a stereotype and more of a serious thing to be considered. Not to be shunned, but to be used as a tool to help us understand ourselves and as a result help society work more effectively.

 

None of that is relevant to what I said, but I'm not interested in refining my point further for the benefit of a teenager who has probably made more threads on feminism, femininity, and masculinity than any other Phatmass poster, as well as announcing that he is writing a book on "the masculinity of Christ". This is obviously a hobby horse/pet obsession of yours (which is probably why you are misreading what people are saying) and nothing I write is likely to alter that. I have other concerns, such as child abuse - which I notice you haven't mentioned in this post either, even though it's a major thing that people here are very vehemently disagreeing with Burke about. I suppose it's easier to start pontificating to women about martial arts and gender and romcoms and all manner of other irrelevant stuff than it is to think about that.

Edited January 8, 2015 by beatitude

[Amppax]

I'm not certain that discussions of "feminine" and "masculine" need boil down to mere stereotyped gender roles. Think of them as two poles on a continuum, each extreme analogous to Platonic forms. 

 

It seems apparent to me that we all have some notion of masculinity and femininity. There is a tendency to think of the feminine as somehow weaker. That can make the use of the word appear to be an insult, when no insult is intended. It's really messy territory, very difficult to handle properly. The temptation to deny the existence of masculine or feminine because no one person fits entirely into one category or another shouldn't be indulged.

 

It's possible that women or men are largely not called en masse to a particular profession because there really truly are differences between the sexes. It's also possible that cultural influences increase or decrease the frequency of these "callings". I think it's both of these things. It's also possible that different types of masses could in general appeal to one sex or the other. I don't care for the hand-holding stuff. I happen to have a gentleman sausage. There is a woman who is a blood relation who also doesn't care for the hand-holding. On the whole, that person is a Philistine, so it might be her aversion to elaborate masses, rather than the fact that she, being a single parent seeking jobs dominated by men, has somehow tipped the scales into masculine traits.

 

Who knows.

 

I really like it when you're serious. I've been trying to put this into words this entire thread. Thank you. 

[Amppax]

I propped this, thinking it was a joke, but I'm still getting used to Phatmass humor, so maybe I was wrong?

 

Is joke, comrade. 

[PhuturePriest]

None of that is relevant to what I said, but I'm not interested in refining my point further for the benefit of a teenager who has probably made more threads on feminism, femininity, and masculinity than any other Phatmass poster, as well as announcing that he is writing a book on "the masculinity of Christ". This is obviously a hobby horse/pet obsession of yours (which is probably why you are misreading what people are saying) and nothing I write is likely to alter that. I have other concerns, such as child abuse - which I notice you haven't mentioned in this post either, even though it's a major thing that people here are very vehemently disagreeing with Burke about. I suppose it's easier to start pontificating to women about martial arts and gender and romcoms and all manner of other irrelevant stuff than it is to think about that.

 

I've only made a handful of threads on feminism, masculinity, and gender roles in general. Though I do apologize for writing about things I'm interested in.

 

However, you are very mistaken, I am afraid. I never wanted to make a book called that or even about that. The book I had in mind was called "Christ and Masculinity", which was to be about Christ's masculine example and teachings for men so we can perhaps step up to the plate. I don't know if you've noticed, but men have been dropping the ball in the "being a man" department. When the percentages of men impregnating their wives and girlfriends and then leaving them are so high, it's safe to say men are struggling with identifying who we are and what we are meant to aspire to.

 

I very well could be misreading others. However, I think it's rather unfair to claim I'm the only one, and I'm not the only one that thinks so.

 

As for the child abuse, I think what Burke was saying is that no real man who practices virtue would ever do those things to minors. Whether he said it the right way is beside the point. There's always the hypothesis that the interviewer slightly altered the wording to fit his agenda, and even if he didn't, we all sometimes don't say something exactly the way we want.

[Basilisa Marie]

You went there, so I'm going there. 

 

The whole "Mass is a sacrifice and has no other meaning beyond that" is wrong. Like, totally, fundamentally wrong, in multiple ways. The mass IS a sacrifice, but if you take the communal element out of the mass, you're going to have something that looks a lot like mass during the middle ages but very little like mass in the first few centuries of Christianity. 

 

The offertory isn't just about the bread and wine getting brought up to the altar. The people brought up whatever their "first fruits" were, whether that was money or chickens. The reason why we say "my sacrifice and yours" is that we're also supposed to be offering our lives (joys, sorrows, etc) to God along with the bread and wine, individually and as a community. 

The sign of peace has roots not only in scripture, but in historical practice. You weren't allowed to approach the table unless you had made peace with your "neighbor." Pissed at your Christian brother or Christian coworker? smells of elderberries to be you guys, go make peace and then come back. I know a lot of people don't really like the sign of peace today, but it's important, and was an intrinsic part of the mass for early Christians. 

 

Those are just two examples. I'm bothering to point them out because a) I love proving you wrong, FP and b) IF what you're saying is true about how Burke is defining feminization (that feminization means a stronger focus on community), that kind of feminization isn't inherently evil. In fact, it even draws its support from scripture, history, and our spiritual tradition. Granted, in many ways we can and do focus too much on the communal element and that leads to people developing a wrong understanding of the Eucharist (among other things). It can be bad.  But you can't go so far as to say that the mass is ONLY a sacrifice, with no communal theology in it, comrade. :) 

Anywho.  IF Burke is trying to say that an over-focus on the community has had a detrimental effect on the way we celebrate liturgy, I agree. :)

Edited January 8, 2015 by Basilisa Marie

[PhuturePriest]

You went there, so I'm going there. 

 

The whole "Mass is a sacrifice and has no other meaning beyond that" is wrong. Like, totally, fundamentally wrong, in multiple ways. The mass IS a sacrifice, but if you take the communal element out of the mass, you're going to have something that looks a lot like mass during the middle ages but very little like mass in the first few centuries of Christianity. 

 

The offertory isn't just about the bread and wine getting brought up to the altar. The people brought up whatever their "first fruits" were, whether that was money or chickens. The reason why we say "my sacrifice and yours" is that we're also supposed to be offering our lives (joys, sorrows, etc) to God along with the bread and wine, individually and as a community. 

The sign of peace has roots not only in scripture, but in historical practice. You weren't allowed to approach the table unless you had made peace with your "neighbor." Pissed at your Christian brother or Christian coworker? smells of elderberries to be you guys, go make peace and then come back. I know a lot of people don't really like the sign of peace today, but it's important, and was an intrinsic part of the mass for early Christians. 

 

Those are just two examples. I'm bothering to point them out because a) I love proving you wrong, FP and b) IF what you're saying is true about how Burke is defining feminization (that feminization means a stronger focus on community), that kind of feminization isn't inherently evil. In fact, it even draws its support from scripture, history, and our spiritual tradition. Granted, in many ways we can and do focus too much on the communal element and that leads to people developing a wrong understanding of the Eucharist (among other things). It can be bad.  But you can't go so far as to say that the mass is ONLY a sacrifice, with no communal theology in it, comrade. :) 

Anywho.  

 

But note everything you stated as being important communal aspects (which they are) exist for the good of the Sacrifice. We offer what we can for the Sacrifice. We make peace with each other so we are properly prepared for the Sacrifice. Everything Communal about the Mass is not communal for the sake of community, but communal for the sake of preparing ourselves for the Sacrifice.

[Amppax]

Yeah, he should know by now the unwritten rules of phat-arse:

 

Personal insults against the Catholic hierarchy (particularly orthodox members), or against the Catholic/Christian Faith = GOOD

 

Speaking against anti-Catholic trolls = BAD

 

 

Because being politically correct is just cooler than hell.

 

Hey Socrates, nice to see you're as pleasant as ever. And no, I was talking about personal attacks. Because, last I checked, calling someone a cretin qualified. Maybe I have thicker skin than you, but I didn't take much offense at Hasan's statements. Wait no, I definitely do. Anyway, nice to see you around again, maybe that'll bring some life back to this place. 

 

Also, and I actually mean this, it's good to see you Papist and DS, even if you are propping Soc's posts. 

[Ice_nine]

I really enjoyed reading this thread. Lots of good ideas and lots of stupid things being thoroughly and rightfully assassinated. And I don't even have to do any of the work. A win-win really

[superblue]

 

 

Those are just two examples. I'm bothering to point them out because a) I love proving you wrong, FP

 

 

That is your mistake right there,  you can not prove someone wrong when that person knows that he is always right because he is well versed and studied in everything possibly imaginable, more over he has studied at the best and brightest institutions around, and further more when you get  the badge of all knowledge you must constantly show it off by never admitting one is ever wrong because admitting one is wrong would thusly mean one does not know it all and the badge would be taken away.

 

In fact I am thinking when ever FP posts anything we should just say thank you, give our props, and move along and be glad that we have been blessed by such free knowledge.

[superblue]

I really enjoyed reading this thread. Lots of good ideas and lots of stupid things being thoroughly and rightfully assassinated. And I don't even have to do any of the work. A win-win really

 

 

That is just being lazy , don't brag about being lazy. mooching of others hard work.... contribute dang it !

[PhuturePriest]

In fact I am thinking when ever FP posts anything we should just say thank you, give our props, and move along and be glad that we have been blessed by such free knowledge.

 

Now you're getting it.

[Ice_nine]

That is just being lazy , don't brag about being lazy. mooching of others hard work.... contribute dang it !

 I'm a phatmass socialist.

[Oremoose]

That is your mistake right there,  you can not prove someone wrong when that person knows that he is always right because he is well versed and studied in everything possibly imaginable, more over he has studied at the best and brightest institutions around, and further more when you get  the badge of all knowledge you must constantly show it off by never admitting one is ever wrong because admitting one is wrong would thusly mean one does not know it all and the badge would be taken away.

 

In fact I am thinking when ever FP posts anything we should just say thank you, give our props, and move along and be glad that we have been blessed by such free knowledge.

 

 

That is just being lazy , don't brag about being lazy. mooching of others hard work.... contribute dang it !

 

Though these have been addressed i do want to say. Both these seem to be More Ad Hominem than actual movement in the discussion. I for one like Ice_nine am happy that I don't really need to add anything, mostly because I am not poetic in posting as everyone else, but to see natural fluid discussion is like warm tea on a cold morning. 

[PhuturePriest]

That is your mistake right there,  you can not prove someone wrong when that person knows that he is always right because he is well versed and studied in everything possibly imaginable, more over he has studied at the best and brightest institutions around, and further more when you get  the badge of all knowledge you must constantly show it off by never admitting one is ever wrong because admitting one is wrong would thusly mean one does not know it all and the badge would be taken away.

 

In fact I am thinking when ever FP posts anything we should just say thank you, give our props, and move along and be glad that we have been blessed by such free knowledge.

 

 

That is just being lazy , don't brag about being lazy. mooching of others hard work.... contribute dang it !

 

[Norseman82]

And what exactly is this awful 'feminized liturgy'? What does a feminized Mass look like, as opposed to a masculine manly Mass?

 

Well, I'll give you one concrete example:  the butchering of liturgical language due to "inclusive language".  Classic phrases such as "you shall become fishers of men" turned to "you wll be catching people".  Changing "God rest ye merry gentlemen" to "God rest ye merry gentlefolk".  Use in a eucharistic prayer of the clumsy word "humankind" instead of "mankind" because the word "humanity" wasn't good enough for "the feminists" (I'm not making that up - the priest told me that to my face!). 

Edited January 9, 2015 by Norseman82