What Will You Miss In Heaven ?

[PhuturePriest]

This debate reminds me of Molinism. 

 

Except less interesting as a concept.

[Luigi]

If we had some ham, we could have some ham & eggs, if we had some eggs.

 

I've listened to a lot of Gospel music - folk, African-American, country, contemporary Christian. One of the things I like about it are the "vision of heaven" songs.

 

Sometimes they cross the river Jordan, either wading into heaven or arriving in "that old Gospel ship".

Sometimes there are twelve gates into the city, the walls are made of jasper, and the streets are made of gold.

Sometimes they enter heaven and then pass everybody ever mentioned in the Bible, plus all their friends & family that they figure to see again in heaven, as they make their way to stand before God's throne -

at that point, either they cast their crown at Jesus' feet or God Almighty tells them, "Well done, good and faithful servant." 

Sometimes they stand on a golden stair and sing in a heavenly choir (but never get tired).

 

All of them are lovely visions. Probably none of them are accurate.

 

As to the "no marriage in heaven" - I had a great-uncle who was married three times. He apparently loved the first two wives a great deal, but they both died; he apparently wasn't that fond of the third wife, but they stayed married until he died. I'm pretty sure he sees God's wisdom at work in the "no marriage in heaven" rule.  

Edited January 5, 2015 by Luigi

[superblue]

But that happened since the beginning. It's not like at one point God decided Mary had original sin and then the next moment God said "You know what? Let's change that." God knows everything and has always known everything. Therefore he already planned for Mary to be without original sin. What you're proposing at the very least comes across as saying God can change his mind, which we both know is impossible.

 

 

Exactly why can't God change his mind on anything ? 

[superblue]

 

As to the "no marriage in heaven" - I had a great-uncle who was married three times. He apparently loved the first two wives a great deal, but they both died; he apparently wasn't that fond of the third wife, but they stayed married until he died. I'm pretty sure he sees God's wisdom at work in the "no marriage in heaven" rule.  

 To bad not everyone agrees,

 

I look at that answer of no marriage or families in heaven as a cop out answer.

[PhuturePriest]

Exactly why can't God change his mind on anything ? 

 

Because he is omnipotent and knows everything, and has always known everything. He has always known every mistake we would make, every good choice we would make, and everything else in between. To change his mind is not only against what the Church teaches, but it would mean he is not omnipotent and all-knowing. If he truly knows everything about something, that means he knows everything which will happen, meaning he knows what is right and what is wrong, and what the best possible thing for him to do in the situation is. Changing his mind and doing something else means there was something he didn't know about, meaning he is not all-knowing, and thus meaning he is not omnipotent.

 

The belief that God can change his mind is in fact an Islamic belief, and is in fact one of the Church's critiques on Islam as a whole. God cannot change his mind and simultaneously be omnipotent, as I have pointed out above.

[superblue]

OK so don't break your head with this stuff FP/PP. 

But I never said that a person who was in Hell would get out of Hell. The interventions I'm talking about mean the person was never in Hell to begin with, even if that was how their story ended at one point. God intervenes, he changes the ending.  The interventions happen inside time, the judgment, which can't change, happens outside of time. It's difficult to talk about this stuff because the concept of time is so fundamental to our understanding of reality. 

 

But God reboots stuff like this a lot.

For example: The Immaculate Conception. Jesus saves His own mother before either of them are born.  Mind-blowing. But that's just God bending time and space. 

 

 

 I gotta say I don't agree with anything you are commenting on with this time travel out of time thing, an F.P is right when he says it is incorrect.

 

It isn't that God can't change his mind on anything, he can, now when an if he did, how would we really know.

 

 

But it defeats the purpose of  life, and free will, to thus go back in time to try and change events so that way everyone can have the best chance possible at getting into heaven.  It is a one shot deal with life, we don't get reincarnated for another crack at life, we don't get second chances after death, if any of that was at all possible we would have heard about it by now. We don't get to Quantum Leap.

 

Done is done, fancy thoughts of multiverses are fun, time travel is a fun idea, that is all though it will ever be an idea.

 

because in this make believe idea of rebooting and time traveling,,, if that was an option, then some where,  this world never happened because Luicifer never fell and took 1/3 of the angels with him...

 

and I don't fancy the thought of different versions of me, for plenty of reasons.

 

But to say it can exist because we cant prove it doesn't, doesn't mean it is true.

 

That would be like saying Darwin is correct with his theories of evolution even though there are major gaps and inconsistencies , errors, and lies in his ideas, an even though he can't prove why he is correct.

[PhuturePriest]

 To bad not everyone agrees,

 

I look at that answer of no marriage or families in heaven as a cop out answer.

 

Tell that to Jesus, then, because he's the one that said it.

 

"For in the resurrection they shall neither marry nor be married; but shall be as the angels of God in heaven." Matthew 22:30

[superblue]

Because he is omnipotent and knows everything, and has always known everything. He has always known every mistake we would make, every good choice we would make, and everything else in between. To change his mind is not only against what the Church teaches, but it would mean he is not omnipotent and all-knowing. If he truly knows everything about something, that means he knows everything which will happen, meaning he knows what is right and what is wrong, and what the best possible thing for him to do in the situation is. Changing his mind and doing something else means there was something he didn't know about, meaning he is not all-knowing, and thus meaning he is not omnipotent.

 

The belief that God can change his mind is in fact an Islamic belief, and is in fact one of the Church's critiques on Islam as a whole. God cannot change his mind and simultaneously be omnipotent, as I have pointed out above.

 

 

Then what is the point of free will if God knows what decisions we are already going to make, I cant argue with the Islamic thing and the church griping about the possibility of God changing his mind, but I would think the definition alone of the word omnipotent means all power and authority ,  good grief what about Abraham and Isaac ,   you can argue till you are blue in the face that it was simply a test to see if Abraham would have killed his son, or God changed his mind at the last second.

 

It doesn't make any sense to say here you have free will, and I know what you are going to do, but then to turn around and say I am doing this because I love you, and you have the choice to choose me but I know you are going to choose to not follow me and now you are going to hell because of that choice , which I knew you were going to do because you had the chance to choose me but I knew you weren't going to.

 

wtf is that ? come on

 

Just because God doesn't change his mind on things, doesn't mean he can't or won't.

[superblue]

Tell that to Jesus, then, because he's the one that said it.

 

"For in the resurrection they shall neither marry nor be married; but shall be as the angels of God in heaven." Matthew 22:30

 

 

Dang Sherlock ya got me, like I didn't know that.

 

Still a cop out answer,

 

same as Luke 20:25,

 

To beans with Caesar, we all know good n well had Christ said, don't give Caesar anything, it would have been cutting short his mission, it is a political answer/you don't bow down to Caesar an declare him winner winner chicken dinner, and you don't deny God what is rightfully his,  Caesar didn't and doesn't deserve a blink of an eye let alone a penny. But Christ couldn't let himself get boxed in.

 

the same with that answer, it is an answer for a time when people were trying to trip Christ up, with a moronic question, out of all the things one could ask about heaven, that is the one they chose.

 

 

Edited January 5, 2015 by superblue

[superblue]

Arguing a side, I know there would be a lot I would miss. An good thing God can handle himself  cause I will make sure to bring up everything I can think of.

 

 

[PhuturePriest]

Then what is the point of free will if God knows what decisions we are already going to make, I cant argue with the Islamic thing and the church griping about the possibility of God changing his mind, but I would think the definition alone of the word omnipotent means all power and authority ,  good grief what about Abraham and Isaac ,   you can argue till you are blue in the face that it was simply a test to see if Abraham would have killed his son, or God changed his mind at the last second.

 

It doesn't make any sense to say here you have free will, and I know what you are going to do, but then to turn around and say I am doing this because I love you, and you have the choice to choose me but I know you are going to choose to not follow me and now you are going to hell because of that choice , which I knew you were going to do because you had the chance to choose me but I knew you weren't going to.

 

what tha' fa fa fa fa fonze? is that ? come on

 

Just because God doesn't change his mind on things, doesn't mean he can't or won't.

 

It is universally understood that God was testing Abraham. Why? Because murder, and human sacrifices in particular, have always been highly frowned upon in the eyes of God, and God would never have someone murder another or use someone in a human sacrifice to him.

 

I have no idea how the highlighted paragraph doesn't make sense. God gave us free will to do as we please, including to worship him and serve him, or to deny him and choose to be away from him. God knows what each of us will end up doing, and he knows where each of us will end up. That doesn't mean he forced any of us one way or the other; on the contrary, simply that he knows. It's not that hard of a concept, and it does make logical sense.

 

No, it means he can't. Did you know that God can't do everything? This is a fact: God can't do anything he wants. He is bound by his nature. He is bound to being logical. He cannot do that which is illogical, and he cannot contradict himself. Thus meaning that he cannot change his mind. He hasn't, he won't, and he doesn't even have the capability of doing so. It is logically impossible.

[Lilllabettt]

Except less interesting as a concept.

 

You're boring.

[PhuturePriest]

You're boring.

 

Not as boring as River Song.

[franciscanheart]

I feel the same.

I'm as loyal a Catholic as they come, but I must admit I'm a little tempted to envy my Mormon friends' beliefs on this particular subject. It's probably the only aspect of their theology that, in a different universe or something, I could imagine myself agreeing with.

I think this is one of those places where our human minds simply cannot understand the overwhelming love of the Father which will remove all need to be joined in any way to another soul. I think it's remarkable that your soul will bear the mark of your husbands. I will likely never bear the mark of another.

To the OP, nothing. I will miss nothing. Isn't that such a wonderful thought? I love it.

[HisChildForever]

Because he is omnipotent and knows everything, and has always known everything. He has always known every mistake we would make, every good choice we would make, and everything else in between. To change his mind is not only against what the Church teaches, but it would mean he is not omnipotent and all-knowing. If he truly knows everything about something, that means he knows everything which will happen, meaning he knows what is right and what is wrong, and what the best possible thing for him to do in the situation is. Changing his mind and doing something else means there was something he didn't know about, meaning he is not all-knowing, and thus meaning he is not omnipotent.

 

The belief that God can change his mind is in fact an Islamic belief, and is in fact one of the Church's critiques on Islam as a whole. God cannot change his mind and simultaneously be omnipotent, as I have pointed out above.

 

But if God is all powerful can't He do anything and everything--I mean if He is outside of time then can't He decide two things at once even if those two things conflict with each other? Him being all powerful, He can essentially create and rewrite and override His own rules and this can exist simultaneously but not exclusively?  :twitch: