Ark Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 There's no issue if we simply ignore everything before Vatican II. Cognitive dissonance, solved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriela Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 There's no issue if we simply ignore everything before Vatican II. Cognitive dissonance, solved. You might want to avoid snark of this sort, even in the Debate Table. I presume that's what got you the phishy tag, and it's also likely to eventually get you banned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catlick Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 I've read quite a few of the encyclicals on capitalism, communism, and labor, and what Pope Leo XIII said has been reiterated again and again by later popes. Even in drastically different economic contexts, the basic ideas still remain constant. I haven't heard Pope Francis say anything that contradicts those teachings. Just because the guy "sounds like a communist" to right-wingers doesn't mean he's actually promoting communism. The Church (as She has spoken in the papal encyclicals) has never been for unfettered capitalism. Exactly. See http://www.theamericanconservative.com/would-someone-just-shut-that-pope-up/. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ark Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 You might want to avoid snark of this sort, even in the Debate Table. I presume that's what got you the phishy tag, and it's also likely to eventually get you banned. Have you read Mortalium Animos? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 Excellent book I'm reading about Leo XIII and Catholic social teaching: Reclaiming Catholic Social Teaching, by Anthony Esolen. Esolen refutes the idea that Catholic social teaching implies a vast welfare state, but shows how the modern Leviathon state is in fact contrary to Catholic social teaching. So far, everything I've read by Dr. Esolen has been outstanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriela Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Have you read Mortalium Animos? No, I have not. Excellent book I'm reading about Leo XIII and Catholic social teaching: Reclaiming Catholic Social Teaching, by Anthony Esolen. Esolen refutes the idea that Catholic social teaching implies a vast welfare state, but shows how the modern Leviathon state is in fact contrary to Catholic social teaching. So far, everything I've read by Dr. Esolen has been outstanding. Yeah, Esolen is a boss. Love that guy. There's also a book by Schuck called "That They Be One", which focuses explicitly on CST related to work, labor, and economics. Basically, he traces CST on those topics from the pre-1893 (Leo XIII) social encyclicals, through Leo XIII, and then up to VII and post-VII. It's a really thorough book, but totally readable. It was his doctoral dissertation. You can buy it here: http://www.amazon.com/That-They-One-Encyclicals-1740-1989/dp/0878404899/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1428885421&sr=8-2&keywords=that+they+be+one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ark Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 No, I have not. Try reconciling Mortalium Animos with Ut Unum Sint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriela Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Try reconciling Mortalium Animos with Ut Unum Sint. Some day I might do that. But in the meantime, I'm willing to trust the theologians, canon lawyers, bishops, and Vatican officials who tell us there is continuity (if not absolute sameness) between the Church pre-VII and the Church post-VII. If you don't trust them, perhaps you could explain why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ark Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 If you don't trust them, perhaps you could explain why. I think there is agreement that we have an issue. Pope Benedict XVI's efforts to interpret Vatican II in light of tradition imply as much. To me the rupture is obvious, and I gave an example. Pope Pius condemned what John Paul II supported. What are we as Roman Catholics to do? Stick with tradition of course, but it took me years to comfortably admit this because like you I wanted to trust. Cognitive dissonance is inevitable if you seriously study this, but there is light at the end of the tunnel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriela Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 I think there is agreement that we have an issue. Pope Benedict XVI's efforts to interpret Vatican II in light of tradition imply as much. To me the rupture is obvious, and I gave an example. Pope Pius condemned what John Paul II supported. What are we as Roman Catholics to do? Stick with tradition of course, but it took me years to comfortably admit this because like you I wanted to trust. Cognitive dissonance is inevitable if you seriously study this, but there is light at the end of the tunnel. Is it not possible to interpret the "contradictions" in a way that reconciles apparent irreconcilables? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ark Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Is it not possible to interpret the "contradictions" in a way that reconciles apparent irreconcilables Sure, if you adopt an evolutionary view of theology, where doctrines pre-Vatican II were appropriate for their time but are now obsolete. This was essentially Cardinal Ratzinger's view at least at 1990. Such perspective eliminates all contradictions but of course, not everyone holds this perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriela Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Sure, if you adopt an evolutionary view of theology, where doctrines pre-Vatican II were appropriate for their time but are now obsolete. This was essentially Cardinal Ratzinger's view at least at 1990. Such perspective eliminates all contradictions but of course, not everyone holds this perspective. Ah. So if it is possible to reconcile them through some reasonable interpretation, then perhaps this: There's no issue if we simply ignore everything before Vatican II. Cognitive dissonance, solved. ...was uncalled for? I mean, if there are other acceptable interpretations, why would you choose this one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriela Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Sure, if you adopt an evolutionary view of theology, where doctrines pre-Vatican II were appropriate for their time but are now obsolete. This was essentially Cardinal Ratzinger's view at least at 1990. Such perspective eliminates all contradictions but of course, not everyone holds this perspective. Ah. So if it is possible to reconcile them through some reasonable interpretation, then perhaps this: There's no issue if we simply ignore everything before Vatican II. Cognitive dissonance, solved. ...was uncalled for? I mean, if there are other acceptable interpretations, why would you choose this one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catlick Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 In times of confusion, follow Tradition. Especially when the modern inventions have produced a bloody mess, as the Eucumenic Revolution has done among Catholics and 1960s sociology in 'Catholic' social thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ark Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Ah. So if it is possible to reconcile them through some reasonable interpretation, then perhaps this: ...was uncalled for? I mean, if there are other acceptable interpretations, why would you choose this one? Do you consider an evolutionary view of theology that allows you to ignore everything pre-Vatican II as a reasonable alternative? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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