What Is Going On With Fatima - Weird Stuff?

[Winchester]

Unless you want to say Revelations is literal, you have to delve deeply. And the Rapture doesn't fit your description, anyway.

[Donna]

Repeat inadfinitum:

[i]There is nothing weird going on at Fatima.[/i]

[cmotherofpirl]

Budge I suggest you read [i]Trial, Tribulation, and Triumph[/i] by Desmond Birch, a definitive book on the end-time , recently fetured on EWTN.

We have been in the "last days" for 2000 years.

[cmotherofpirl]

Budge I suggest you read [i]Trial, Tribulation, and Triumph[/i] by Desmond Birch, a definitive book on the end-time , recently fetured on EWTN.

We have been in the "last days" for 2000 years.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[b]ADDRESS OF CARDINAL ANGELO SODANO
REGARDING THE "THIRD PART" OF THE SECRET OF FATIMA
AT THE CONCLUSION OF THE SOLEMN MASS
OF JOHN PAUL II

Fatima, 13 May 2000[/b]


[quote][b]The vision of Fatima concerns above all the war waged by atheist systems against the Church and Christians, and it describes the immense suffering endured by the witnesses to the faith in the last century of the second millennium. It is an interminable Way of the Cross led by the Popes of the twentieth century.[/b][/quote]

[P3chrmd]

[quote]The Rapture was a side issue to this entire thread. Thessolanians describes Christians being taken up at the time of Christs coming. Unless you want to say the Bible is lying, there will be some type of taking up or Rapture during the time of Christs return. [/quote]

Poor guy...you really are lost when it comes to what we catholic believe...of COURSE there will be a rapture...we do NOT deny that...but it will NOT happen before the tribulation...because there IS NO EVIDENCE of such in the bible! This entire rapture before the tribulation carp has been around for only 150 yrs. Why do protestants insist on believing in stuff that has been around for 150 yrs!!! OH I know why...cause its an easy way out of things....all the good christians will get to be in heaven BEFORE the trib. because we have been really good OH PLEASE!

So...YES catholics believe in a rapture...but not a pre-trib one...ON THE LAST DAY Christ will return to judge the living and the dead...and on that day...and on that day ONLY will there be any sort of rapture!

Jesus et Maria, Amos Vos, Salvate Animas
Brandon V.

[P3chrmd]

Premillennialists often give much attention to the doctrine of the rapture. According to this doctrine, when Christ returns, all of the elect who have died will be raised and transformed into a glorious state, along with the living elect, and then be caught up to be with Christ. The key text referring to the rapture is 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17, which states, "For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord."

Premillennialists hold, as do virtually all Christians (except certain postmillennialists), that the Second Coming will be preceded by a time of great trouble and persecution of God’s people (2 Thess. 2:1–4). This period is often called the tribulation. Until the nineteenth century, all Christians agreed that the rapture—though it was not called that at the time—would occur immediately before the Second Coming, at the close of the period of persecution. This position is today called the "post-tribulational" view because it says the rapture will come after the tribulation.

But in 1830, a Scottish visionary, who belonged to a sect known as the Irvingites, claimed while in a trance that the rapture would occur before the period of persecution. This position, now known as the "pre-tribulational" view, also was embraced by John Nelson Darby, an early leader of a Fundamentalist movement that became known as Dispensationalism. Darby’s pre-tribulational view of the rapture was then picked up by a man named C.I. Scofield, who taught the view in the footnotes of his Scofield Reference Bible, which was widely distributed in England and America. Many Protestants who read the Scofield Reference Bible uncritically accepted what its footnotes said and adopted the pre-tribulational view, even though no Christian had heard of it in the previous 1800 years of Church history.

Eventually, a third position developed, known as the "mid-tribulational" view, which claims that the rapture will occur during the middle of the tribulation. Finally, a fourth view developed that claims that there will not be a single rapture where all believers are gathered to Christ, but that there will be a series of mini-raptures that occur at different times with respect to the tribulation.

This confusion has caused the movement to split into bitterly opposed camps.

The problem with all of the positions (except the historic, post-tribulational view, which was accepted by all Christians, including non-premillennialists) is that they split the Second Coming into different events. In the case of the pre-trib view, Christ is thought to have three comings—one when he was born in Bethlehem, one when he returns for the rapture at the tribulation’s beginning, and one at tribulation’s end, when he establishes the millennium. This three-comings view is foreign to Scripture.

Problems with the pre-tribulational view are highlighted by Baptist (and premillennial) theologian Dale Moody, who wrote: "Belief in a pre-tribulational rapture . . . contradicts all three chapters in the New Testament that mention the tribulation and the rapture together (Mark 13:24–27; Matt. 24:26–31; 2 Thess. 2:1–12). . . . The theory is so biblically bankrupt that the usual defense is made using three passages that do not even mention a tribulation (John 14:3; 1 Thess. 4:17; 1 Cor. 15:52). These are important passages, but they have not had one word to say about a pre-tribulational rapture. The score is 3 to 0, three passages for a post-tribulational rapture and three that say nothing on the subject.
. . . Pre-tribulationism is biblically bankrupt and does not know it" (The Word of Truth, 556–7).

Many spend much time looking for signs in the heavens and in the headlines. This is especially true of premillennialists, who anxiously await the tribulation because it will inaugurate the rapture and millennium.

A more balanced perspective is given by Peter, who writes, "But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. . . . Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of persons ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be kindled and dissolved, and the elements will melt with fire! But according to his promise we wait for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace" (2 Pet. 3:8–14).

[i]thanks to catholic.com[/i]

[Donna]

Not mentioned by the Fatima rector re: the 1st Apparition by the Angel of Peace:

Following the prostration on the ground at the "non-denominational God" prayer* St. Michael said, [i]"Pray thus. [b]The hearts of Jesus and Mary [/b]are attentive to the voice of your supplications."[/i]

Not mentioned by the Fatima rector after the Seers received Holy Communion from St Michael (2nd Apparition of the Angel of Peace):

[b]A[/b]: The angel of Peace prostrates on the ground in front of the [b]consecrated host and wine [/b]suspended in mid-air.

[b]B[/b]: Can the prayer St. Michael then taught the Seers be held by the Orthodox? It ends, [i]"And, through the infinite merits of the Sacred Heart of Jesus [b]and the Immaculate Heart of Mary[/b], I beg of Thee the conversion of poor sinners."[/i] The Orthodox do not hold the Immaculate Conception, much less the Immaculate Heart.

[b]C:[/b] The Seers were taught the above prayer of reparation, and when Holy Communion was given Jacinta by chalice, St Michael said:
[i][b]Take and drink [u]the Body and [/u][/i][/b]Blood of Jesus Christ, horribly outraged by ungrateful men. Make reparation for their crimes and console your God.

Each Seer was given Holy Communion under [u]one[/u] species, not by tincture.



*[i]My God, I believe, I adore, I hope in and I love Thee.
I beg pardon for those who do not believe, do not adore,
do not hope in, and do not love Thee.[/i]

Edited June 15, 2004 by Donna

[Winchester]

Someone may have hijacked a Catholic thing and turned it into something non-Christian?

Well, that's it, I'm leaving.

[Donna]

[i]And, if we do not enter into dialogue, our destiny will be that of Cain: he killed Abel to put an end to his annoying company and spent the rest of his life in an agonizing loneliness, with the voice of his brother's blood hammering away in the ears of his conscience.[/i]

Pope Pius XI thought otherwise. In [i]Mortalium Animos [/i]he said that the Holy See and Pontiffs would forgive all insults and open the paternal heart to the separated brethren, if they would but leave their errors and submit to the truth in Holy Mother Church.

Is the [i]Denzinger[/i] wrong then? The Church is not a perfect society unto herself? The prayer of unity Jesus prayed on Maundy Thursday yet to be fulfilled?

If by [i]dialogue[/i] is meant "Go therefore and baptize all nations", then yes, the churchmen (not the Church) will kill by omission those souls neglected by a lack of missionary in the Church. I reckon the North American Martyrs had a reason to be annoyed with those who maimed and tortured them.

I think the Father Rector is not speaking of this.

Edited June 15, 2004 by Donna

[Donna]

Winchester, you are not [i]dialoguing[/i] very well tonight.

[Winchester]

I truly prefer demagoging

[Donna]

[i]It is our conviction," says Monsignor Guerra, "that the article in Portugal News has been guided by some members of the group led by Father Gruner, [/i]

This seems a little far-fetched.

Maybe [i]Portugal News [/i]is just reporting the news.

[Donna]

[i]He [Father Gruner] continues to take a critical stance toward John Paul II's vision of ecumenism, as evidenced by a 2000 document called, "We Resist You to Your Face" -- the You referring to the Pope.[/i]

I'm confused: aren't the authors of [i]We Resist You [/i] four laypeople?

[Donna]

July 13, 1917, to the Fatima Seers:

[i]"You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. [b]To save them[/b], God wishes to establish on earth devotion to my Immaculate Heart."[/i]

"Them" equals...everyone but the non-Catholics?