Here's A Bomb

[Lilllabettt]

This is my thoughts so far:
1. SSA isn't a mental disorder - it doesn't matter that some people think it is. The church doesn't, and isn't qualified, to say that it's a psychological disorder.
2. I think the language often used by the church around 'disorder' is misleading, in terms of everyday speech.
3. Cardinals, Bishops, Priests and Religious have a public responsibility to put across the best face of the church and watch what they say to the media. Some, who get lots of attention, don't do this in a rounded and informed way. Cardinals, above all else, should know better than those lower down the chain on what's taught and how to conduct themselves.
3.Opinion and belief isn't necessarily fact. People who experience SSA have more insight into the issues than most Catholics, so humility is a good start, but often lacking.
4. It doesn't matter what anyone 'thinks' someone else else 'should' do. Unless they have that problem themselves they don't really know what they'd do. People make the choices they do based on their condition and experience. Contrary views and judgements don't necessarily trump that.
5. People can disagree on some points around morality/theology. It doesn't mean they are any 'less' than others. They may be people of great faith, love and charity. God is in there doing his stuff regardless of what people think about, like, on anything.
6 I think the church, and often this board, goes on and on about homosexuality in term of 'sex'. It's like an obsession with anything and everything sexual- sex outside marriage, contraception, SSA, cohabitation, second marriage etc. All implied around doing something they shouldn't in the bedroom. Geeze. Does anyone think relationally or about other stuff? Maybe some of those annoying folks breaking all your codes are doing more struggling, more work and have more faith?
7. I think there's some sort of grace of God in the fact that so many groups have been treated like trash over the years and yet they still care enough to bother with the church and other people who must drive them nuts. I don't think I could stand it if it was me, like no way. Props to them for bothering, esp when they get nothing back alot of the time.
8. The church, and many of its followers, should treat people like they do other religions and denominations. They don't run around calling other religions sinners for having a diferent view/teaching or behaviour code. The church doesn't condemn them. But a person, or sub group, is an easy target for disdain?

 

where is this Church that goes "on and on" about homosexuality and gay sex / premarital sex / contraception/ second marriage, etc.??? what part of the world do you live in that this what you hear from the Church day in and day out? 

 

you know what I think? I think the Church doesn't go on and on about this stuff, but its THIS STUFF that contradicts the world, that rubs the world the wrong way --- and that's why the world is hyper focused on these issues.  Am I getting that idea across? It's not the Church that's obsessed. Its the world that's obsessed with the fact that the Church refuses to go along with the times on these issues. 

[Benedictus]

where is this Church that goes "on and on" about homosexuality and gay sex / premarital sex / contraception/ second marriage, etc.??? what part of the world do you live in that this what you hear from the Church day in and day out? 

 

you know what I think? I think the Church doesn't go on and on about this stuff, but its THIS STUFF that contradicts the world, that rubs the world the wrong way --- and that's why the world is hyper focused on these issues.  Am I getting that idea across? It's not the Church that's obsessed. Its the world that's obsessed with the fact that the Church refuses to go along with the times on these issues. 

 

Yes, I think it's fair to say the media only portrays the Catholic church through the prism of certain moral questions. They only go after the issues that are, in this threads words, a bomb. But I also don't see the church declining to talk to them about those things in favour of something else. I don't know about anyone else but I've lost count on the prayer cards, clergy notices, petitions, talks, conferences, newsletter releases, prayer pleas, commentary and 'Where we stand on . . ' leaflets I've seen on these issues over the years. Lets say it's a lot. That's not even getting to the secular media, the Vatican, this latest synod, and the influence Bishops try to exert on the media and politicians regarding these issues.

Maybe these issues also keep coming up because the power the church has over policy (usually around sex somehow) in some countries leads to people being upset and disaffected (accusations such moral precepts cause more discrimination, reduced rights, ignorance and deaths). Maybe the media just doesn't get how a group could still hold to such views on sex and relationship issues. I'd be surprised if I've ever seen an invited speaker, repeating Catholic news story or petition about something other than the usual hot potatoes. To say 'it's all the world, not us' is fairly amusing to me. It takes two to tango, and the church isn't exactly a passive partner. Great selective commentary by the way. :flex2:

 

[Cherie]

I do have gay relatives and friends. There is a huge difference between talking about the issue in general and talking to a person specifically about an issue they may have trouble with, be it homosexual acts or contraception or whathaveyou.

[Cherie]

Anyone who actually cares for the people who this issue affects knows that discourse which pathologises homosexual people is alienating and hurtful. There are far better ways to express the Church's teaching on this issue, and the inability of certain Catholics and members of the hierarchy to realise just how horrible they sound when talking about this issue is a grave concern.

Fine, you may think it "sounds horrible," but it's not verbal abuse and it's ridiculous for someone to claim that. If we're going to have an honest discussion we need to stop such inflammatory statements.

[Credo in Deum]

https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinion/how-cardinal-burke-welcomed-home-a-gay-activist

It turns out Burke not only reprimands sin, but welcomes home sinners.

I think this is a great article and one which shows the correct attitude we should take during these times. Sin is unreasonable and always will be. Those who embrace unreasonable positions are hardly swayed by reasonable arguments. Sure reasonable arguments can help and sometimes they do, but to think that they always will or that they will be the major source of conversions is likewise unreasonable. Burke understood this which is why when reasonable arguments failed he didn't push further. He knew some have to leave and wallow in the mire of unreasonableness before they realize their true peace and happiness are found in God and living the moral law which God made for our benefit. He knew while our brothers and sisters are away we should make sacrifices for them and offer prayers and Masses -which I'm sure Burke did for Hess. We should also express a true faith in God's power and ability to touch the hearts of even the most hardened sinners. A faith which Burke clearly has since he was sure Hess would come back because he believes in Christ's promise "ask and you shall receive" and so he asked for Hess' conversion and safety of body and soul and that's what he got. Burkes prayers were answered and so will ours, but not if we allow and welcome unreasonableness in God's home: the Catholic Church. The Father (like Burke) in the parable of the Prodigal Son did not change his home to be more palatable to his son or easier on his son's unreasonable behavior. And why not? It is because the father knew the Home must be a sanctuary from the unreasonableness of sin, where the unreasonble find reason and where the hopeless find hope. It must be separate from the spirit of the world and it must remain this way. It must be a light to the world and one which is not hidden.

[Gabriela]

I think this is a great article and one which shows the correct attitude we should take during these times. Sin is unreasonable and always will be. Those who embrace unreasonable positions are hardly swayed by reasonable arguments. Sure reasonable arguments can help and sometimes they do, but to think that they always will or that they will be the major source of conversions is likewise unreasonable. Burke understood this which is why when reasonable arguments failed he didn't push further. He knew some have to leave and wallow in the mire of unreasonableness before they realize their true peace and happiness are found in God and living the moral law which God made for our benefit. He knew while our brothers and sisters are away we should make sacrifices for them and offer prayers and Masses -which I'm sure Burke did for Hess. We should also express a true faith in God's power and ability to touch the hearts of even the most hardened sinners. A faith which Burke clearly has since he was sure Hess would come back because he believes in Christ's promise "ask and you shall receive" and so he asked for Hess' conversion and safety of body and soul and that's what he got. Burkes prayers were answered and so will ours, but not if we allow and welcome unreasonableness in God's home: the Catholic Church. The Father (like Burke) in the parable of the Prodigal Son did not change his home to be more palatable to his son or easier on his son's unreasonable behavior. And why not? It is because the father knew the Home must be a sanctuary from the unreasonableness of sin, where the unreasonble find reason and where the hopeless find hope. It must be separate from the spirit of the world and it must remain this way. It must be a light to the world and one which is not hidden.

 

I normally click straight through LifeSite News, but I read the article you linked to and indeed, it is a good one. What stands out to me—aside from the obvious—is that Hess' homosexual lover encouraged him to follow his conscience. I think such details complicate the way some Catholics normally talk about this issue, and ought to remind us that, ultimately, most people try to do what they believe is right, and there really can be love and selflessness even in homosexual relationships. That "shred of light" in them doesn't make them okay or right, but it should be remembered and respected in our discourse with and about homosexuals.

 

Thanks, Credo, for posting. It was a touching way to start my day! :)

[truthfinder]

I normally click straight through LifeSite News, but I read the article you linked to and indeed, it is a good one. What stands out to me—aside from the obvious—is that Hess' homosexual lover encouraged him to follow his conscience. I think such details complicate the way some Catholics normally talk about this issue, and ought to remind us that, ultimately, most people try to do what they believe is right, and there really can be love and selflessness even in homosexual relationships. That "shred of light" in them doesn't make them okay or right, but it should be remembered and respected in our discourse with and about homosexuals.

 

Thanks, Credo, for posting. It was a touching way to start my day! :)

 

It was an interesting article.  I think one could say that his lover really did love him - enough to let him go and say do what you need to do.  Sometimes this works the other way - but in the end, we're all just human.

[Norseman82]

Apparently, being the most capable and respected canon lawyer who defends canon law without blinking an eye makes you a "verbal abuser".

 

 

Can you quote what part of what he said is verbal abuse?  Or demonstrates a "lack of love." Even if you don't agree with the approach he recommends (I think its a reasonable one that every family in this situation needs to seriously consider)  think a fair-minded person would struggle to say that what he has to say is abusive or expressed without love for sinners. 

 

Fine, you may think it "sounds horrible," but it's not verbal abuse and it's ridiculous for someone to claim that. If we're going to have an honest discussion we need to stop such inflammatory statements.

 

I think part of the problem is that people feign offense in order to shut down a conversation that is not going their way.  I've seen it used as a censoring tool at CAF.   

 

Francis Cardinal George, in a recent interview with the Chicago Tribune, stated in regards to the Catholic Church's opposition to gay marriage: 

 

"'I regret if I've spoken in a way that people weren't able to hear,' he said.  'If I'm to be silenced for fear of hurting someone now, what happens to the conversation?' he added.  'I'm sorry, I don't want to hurt anybody.  But if you say, 'Unless you agree with me I'll be hurt', well, that's not a just demand.  I'm hurt by that'". 

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-cardinal-george-interview-met-20141020-story.html

 

(For those who can't access it or need to sign in, I'll do the bibliography the old-school way we used to do for term papers prior to the internet:  Chicago Tribune, Tuesday 10/21/2014, section 1, page 9).

Edited November 2, 2014 by Norseman82

[PhuturePriest]

I think part of the problem is that people feign offense in order to shut down a conversation that is not going their way.  I've seen it used as a censoring tool at CAF.   

 

Francis Cardinal George, in a recent interview with the Chicago Tribune, stated in regards to the Catholic Church's opposition to gay marriage: 

 

"'I regret if I've spoken in a way that people weren't able to hear,' he said.  'If I'm to be silenced for fear of hurting someone now, what happens to the conversation?' he added.  'I'm sorry, I don't want to hurt anybody.  But if you say, 'Unless you agree with me I'll be hurt', well, that's not a just demand.  I'm hurt by that'". 

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-cardinal-george-interview-met-20141020-story.html

 

(For those who can't access it or need to sign in, I'll do the bibliography the old-school way we used to do for term papers prior to the internet:  Chicago Tribune, Tuesday 10/21/2014, section 1, page 9).

 

A quote from A Man for All Seasons has really jumped out at me recently with all this talk of watering down language in order to make people feel "more welcome". Saint Thomas More is speaking to the man whom wants to marry his daughter, and he said he was a fine man, but the answer was no until he stopped being a heretic. "Now that's a word I don't like!" the man protested. "It's not a likeable word because it's not a likeable thing. But whether you like it or not, that's what you are."

 

It's that kind of language the Saints always have that I wish we would utilize now, but unfortunately we have become so wussified that we're too afraid to. There's no such thing as boldly proclaiming the faith anymore, there's just sharing the faith in a "pastoral" way.

[Credo in Deum]

A quote from A Man for All Seasons has really jumped out at me recently with all this talk of watering down language in order to make people feel "more welcome". Saint Thomas More is speaking to the man whom wants to marry his daughter, and he said he was a fine man, but the answer was no until he stopped being a heretic. "Now that's a word I don't like!" the man protested. "It's not a likeable word because it's not a likeable thing. But whether you like it or not, that's what you are."

It's that kind of language the Saints always have that I wish we would utilize now, but unfortunately we have become so wussified that we're too afraid to. There's no such thing as boldly proclaiming the faith anymore, there's just sharing the faith in a "pastoral" way.

That movie has to be one of my all time favorites. Another great quote applicable to our time (as truth always is) is this one:

"Look at these names, Thomas," Norfolk pleaded. "Won't you come with us, for fellowship?"

"And when you have gone to Heaven for following your conscience," More replies, "and I have gone to Hell for not following mine, will you come with me — for fellowship?"

[PhuturePriest]

That movie has to be one of my all time favorites. Another great quote applicable to our time (as truth always is) is this one:

"Look at these names, Thomas," Norfolk pleaded. "Won't you come with us, for fellowship?"

"And when you have gone to Heaven for following your conscience," More replies, "and I have gone to Hell for not following mine, will you come with me — for fellowship?"

 

I've never seen it until last week, and it is easily my favorite movie. Who knew a movie with no sword fights or special effects could enrapture an audience like A Man for All Seasons can.

 

One of the best quotes: "Oh, Rich. What does it profiteth a man to gain the whole world but lose his soul, but for Wales?"

[Credo in Deum]

I've never seen it until last week, and it is easily my favorite movie. Who knew a movie with no sword fights or special effects could enrapture an audience like A Man for All Seasons can.

One of the best quotes: "Oh, Rich. What does it profiteth a man to gain the whole world but lose his soul, but for Wales?"

If you like that movie you will also like "Becket" with Richard Burton and Peter O'Toole. And "The Cardinal" with Tom Tryon and John Huston. It's another one of my favorites.

[PhuturePriest]

If you like that movie you will also like "Becket" with Richard Burton and Peter O'Toole. And "The Cardinal" with Tom Tryon and John Huston. It's another one of my favorites.

 

I've been meaning to watch Becket. And I've never heard of The Cardinal until the past few days, but I'll definitely have to watch it.

[Credo in Deum]

I've been meaning to watch Becket. And I've never heard of The Cardinal until the past few days, but I'll definitely have to watch it.

This will be my last post since this is horribly off topic, but go watch them now! Haha. Watch "The Cardinal" first.

[PhuturePriest]

This will be my last post since this is horribly off topic, but go watch them now! Haha. Watch "The Cardinal" first.

 

In Phatmass standards, this is nowhere near horribly off-topic. :P

 

But well-noted. I shall do so immediately.