Woman, 29, Will End Her Life In Nov. 1

[BarbTherese]

For someone who says they could never condone suicide you sure are doing your best to condone it. The temperature inside the buildings when the jet fuel was burning was hot enough to melt steel and so this would force people to try to avoid the heat. Even to the point of going near the edge of the building. No one is going to call those who fell out of the buidlings suicides because no one knows if they jumped out of the window of their own choice or if it was because the heat literally pushed them out of the buildig. Yet with Brittany the opposite is the case . No one can say logicalyl that cancer forced Brittany to commit suicide. Suicide was an unnatural end which Brittany introduced to escape cancer. Suicide was never and would have never been in the equation unless she introduced it.

 

You have  misunderstood I think.  I am not condoning suicide, it is always gravely morally wrong i.e. grave matter...........and this without exceptions.  I am saying that I can as a human being feel deeply for and empathise with some fellow human beings who do commit suicide.  This does not and cannot mean that what I or anyone feels can dictate to or about the Moral Law or grave matter only in this instance.  Perhaps you did not read my earlier post where I stated that the Justice and Mercy of God is always inscrutable to we mere mortals and other related matters including quoting a Vatican Document where we can Hope that all might be saved and that Jesus died for all and so we can Hope and pray that He did not die in vain on that score.  Certainly after both Morning and Evening Prayer in the Divine Office the final Intercession is rather regularly a prayer for the salvation of all.  Can we be absolutely sure on any sort of moral judgements?  We cannot ever be absolutely sure.  Only God is the Judge.

 

Grave matter is one subject..............mortal sin is another subject completely of which grave matter is one condition of the three concurrent conditions necessary for mortal sin.  Only mortal sin has the power to condemn - and Church Teaching.  It is impossible for us to judge other than to have possibly more insight into our own spiritual condition, while none into that of the other most often.  This is why we are told by Jesus not to judge - we cannot in justice, it is impossible.

[BarbTherese]

With all very real respect for contrary opinions, I am thinking of ducking out of this thread also :)    I think that my own personal points and concepts have been made, other than to go round in circles and over again once more what has already been stated.

 

God bless and Peace be with all

[Ice_nine]

Most of the people who jumped probably extended their conscious lives by a few seconds rather than cut it short. At least got to breathe a little bit longer. Even without that point, the comparison between 9/11 and a terminal illness is kind of asinine.

 

May God have mercy on her soul, and on all of us. I always wondered if I killed myself if God would have forgiven me. Maybe he would have as I was pretty messed up, but I'm glad I never found out first hand.

[BarbTherese]

"Asinine" is certainly one perspective and attitude, an opinion, rightly or wrongly. :)

Most of the people who jumped probably extended their conscious lives by a few seconds rather than cut it short

 

 

Is the cup half full or half empty :)

If these people did jump, I wonder which was in their minds and hearts.  I suspect it might have been that jumping was preferred to the likely death they were facing in The Tower and possible totally impulsive actions without much pre-thought at all.  I think that Credo in Deum made a very good point about why they jumped or maybe fell, which he or she posted earlier.

 

Suicide is always gravely morally disordered (grave matter) no matter the reason for the action.  I too am thankful that my own suicide attempt many years ago was unsuccessful.  I have known that terrible dark place in one's psyche not all experience and a pretty "messed up" place - and which seems to have no escape route whatsoever.  This is a  psychological/psychiatric and even a spiritual problem.

 

It is a different type of 'terrible dark hole'(nature of only) to those facing a guaranteed traumatic and terrible suffering and assured death as in The Towers.  I feel (no guarantees) that all are in Heaven, while still praying for them, and may The Lord bring His Peace and consolations to friends and family.

 

Terrible suffering and then death due to illness strikes me anyway as an external pressure not freely chosen.

 

The above are all 'dark holes' and external pressures i.e. situations not freely chosen.  Such situations would also possibly induce intense feelings probably of fear and probable or likely extreme fear (see 1860 below).

 

I cannot know for sure, they are just assessments, very fallible inexpert assessments, of some situations.

 

1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

 

 

 

Catholic Catechism: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a5.htm#2281

2325 Suicide is seriously contrary to justice, hope, and charity. It is forbidden by the fifth commandment.

 

Suicide

2280 Everyone is responsible for his life before God who has given it to him. It is God who remains the sovereign Master of life. We are obliged to accept life gratefully and preserve it for his honor and the salvation of our souls. We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us. It is not ours to dispose of.

 

2281 Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.

 

2282 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law.

Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.

 

2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.

 

 

 

The Catholic Church is indeed the Church of Mercy!  She upholds the Moral Law of God without fear, while allowing His Divine Justice in Mercy shine out just as fearlessly.

 

.

Edited November 5, 2014 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

"External pressures not freely chosen" is not a condoning of suicide.  It is an understanding of the weak human condition and psyche and very tiny insight into God's Mercy as explained by our Catholic Theology and the CCC in this instance.  Suicide is a grave moral wrong and the subject of grave matter.

Our greatest hero's and heroines in our Catholic Tradition are our martyrs who faced and accepted very often terrible tortures and sure death with Faith right up to their terrible deaths.  Would I have this courage?  I know I would have The Grace to do so.

If I was to commit suicide and no matter the external pressures or anything else - and believing that God would forgive me because of the external pressures, I would be a real risk of the terrible sin of presumption.

Edited November 5, 2014 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

I would be a real risk of the terrible sin of presumption

 

 

And in as normal and rational a mind as I can achieve anyway, that scares the willies out of me!

[Credo in Deum]

You have  misunderstood I think.  I am not condoning suicide, it is always gravely morally wrong i.e. grave matter...........and this without exceptions.  I am saying that I can as a human being feel deeply for and empathise with some fellow human beings who do commit suicide.  This does not and cannot mean that what I or anyone feels can dictate to or about the Moral Law or grave matter only in this instance.  Perhaps you did not read my earlier post where I stated that the Justice and Mercy of God is always inscrutable to we mere mortals and other related matters including quoting a Vatican Document where we can Hope that all might be saved and that Jesus died for all and so we can Hope and pray that He did not die in vain on that score.  Certainly after both Morning and Evening Prayer in the Divine Office the final Intercession is rather regularly a prayer for the salvation of all.  Can we be absolutely sure on any sort of moral judgements?  We cannot ever be absolutely sure.  Only God is the Judge.

 

Grave matter is one subject..............mortal sin is another subject completely of which grave matter is one condition of the three concurrent conditions necessary for mortal sin.  Only mortal sin has the power to condemn - and Church Teaching.  It is impossible for us to judge other than to have possibly more insight into our own spiritual condition, while none into that of the other most often.  This is why we are told by Jesus not to judge - we cannot in justice, it is impossible.

 

I think the problem with this thread or at least the problem introduced into this thread by Josh and yourself, is that when we talk about the morality of actions others equate that as we're judging the morality of individuals.  This is a common problem even when discussing this subject in secular areas like on Facebook etc..  If you say suicide is wrong people jump on you and say "how dare you judge Brittany as evil!?"  Even when the Vatican stressed that their condemnation of the ACT of suicide itself was wicked and that this was not a judgement that Brittany herself was wicked, others replied back with, "who are they (the Church) to judge her?"  

 

You may think the problem is no one is talking about the Mercy of God, when the real issue is society is trying to make it impossible to talk about the morality of actions!  They want to label such speech as hate crimes, and obstinate sinners are more than happy to oblige because such talk disturbs their consciences.  Until this error is fixed people will always use the Mercy of God as the presumption of God's Mercy and will paint Him as a Father who is indifferent to His children's actions.   Some have even said that suicide was an option God gave her to help reduce her suffering.   One can't help think " yea, the hour cometh, that whosoever killeth you, will think that he doth a service to God."-- John 16:2   

[PhuturePriest]

"Cancer didn't force Brittany to commit suicide".  Surely you cannot mean she would have committed suicide even if she did not have cancer. Cancer indeed played a part in her choice.  It was not cancer that FORCED her to make the choice, just as it was not the collapse of The Towers in fire that FORCED those involved to choose suicide.   There is ALWAYS a choice.  ALWAYS.

 

Brittany indeed had two choices.  She could either die of cancer quite naturally but in serious pain.  (Although I do wonder what palliative care for the terminally ill  might apply in the USA?  Here in Australia it is said to be excellent)

Brittany's other presenting choice was to choose how she died (suicide) and relatively free of pain it seems.

 

It seems to me to be semantics to state that those involved in the 9/11 crime were forced to choose between death in the 9/11 crime or suicide and a hopefully quick death, while Brittany was in another moral category entirely.  The only difference is that with 9/11 it was crime, although those involved in 9/11 at the time would not have known this.  Why is there some sort of moral difference because Brittany's impending death was not by crime?

 

I could never condone suicide.  It is always seriously morally wrong and grave matter, but I can indeed feel deeply, even empathise, for some that do make this choice.

 

This seems almost reasonable, except for the fact that it's not. Experts have speculated it is more likely than not that the people who jumped didn't even realize they were jumping to their death. They were choking from smoke, panicking, certain they were going to die, and just wanted to escape. At least most of them likely didn't realize they were going to die if they jumped, because all they could think about was trying to escape the smoke.

 

Therefore, please stop comparing these two events, as it really does not do justice to the poor souls on 9/11, and even though you didn't intend for it to be so, it is a little offensive.

[Guest]

My problem was reading all the comments on Father Morris's Facebook page from Catholics calling her a coward and some condemning her to hell. I came here and expressed my frustration apologies for that.

[Guest]

Talking about the morality of actions is fine and should be talked about. No disagreement from me.

[BarbTherese]

If we state what The Church teaches on the Moral Law and this includes the distinction between grave matter and mortal sin (of which grave matter is only one component), and people are misunderstanding, then it is up to us to correct their thinking if we can.  My reasoning is that there are not only those who post, but those who read but never post.  Personally, I think it wrongful to water down or mitigate what The Church teach - to not present the full story. 

 

I never go near social interaction type sites like Facebook and similar, thus I am unaware of what problems may exist on such sites - not my call and vocation.  My sole internet diet is CA and Phatmass also reading and research on Catholic matters.  On CA and Phatmass I can learn and also where I can put out what The Church does actually teach across, if I am aware of it,.........and in hope of getting what The Church does teach across.  If I am unaware of what The Church might have to state, then I will considerably research until in hope I can discern same.

 

I certainly have better 'luck' and am more comfortable talking face to face to non Catholics and Catholics too about what The Church does teach.  When I first was given a computer, I did research sites like Facebook and similar and did not like the experience at all.  Simply not my vocation and call.

 

Ours is to labour and it is in The Lord's Hands solely as to apparent success or the lack of it.  Although one does Peacefully strive that any labours are not in vain and in a spirit of Charity..........in hope.

 

If presenting the Moral Law of The Church or any other matter that others misinterpret -  and others perceive it as judging or some other error, then one has two options - leave them thinking that way or correct their misunderstanding about judging and about the Moral Law etc which with the Moral Law includes the distinction between grave matter and mortal sin.............and in hope Peacefully and Charitably.

 

We do Jesus and His Church a grave disservice if we do not present the Merciful Face of the Teachings of Jesus and His Catholic Church.  We are indeed the Church of Mercy, reflecting the Face of The Father "He who sees Me, sees The Father"............and "No one comes to The Father except through Me".

[BarbTherese]

My apologies if anyone is offended by my references to 9/11.  Offence was not intended and 9/11 is a shocking crime close to my own heart and prayer especially for those directly involved and this includes all in the USA.

[Lilllabettt]

 

It seems to me to be semantics to state that those involved in the 9/11 crime were forced to choose between death in the 9/11 crime or suicide and a hopefully quick death, while Brittany was in another moral category entirely.  The only difference is that with 9/11 it was crime, although those involved in 9/11 at the time would not have known this.  Why is there some sort of moral difference because Brittany's impending death was not by crime?

 

 

 

uhhhh

 

The difference is that the jumpers on 9/11 did not commit suicide. They were murdered. They did not jump with the hope that the fall would kill them. Brittany took her dosage with the hope that it would kill her.

 

But let me go on.

 

Getting oxygen is the only thing the brain wants to do when its being deprived. No doubt a lot of people didn't even realize they were jumping out of a building. Their only thought, their only motive, was to get to the oxygen.

 

Many others jumped with the wild irrational hope that somehow, out there in the wonderfully cool, fresh, sunlit air, away from the darkness, heat, and smoke, they would somehow be saved - hit a balcony or a roof top 20 feet down or get scooped up by firefighters in iron men costumes or something. These are ideas the desperate, panicking, oxygen-deprived brain gets.

 

And that's the other difference - the jumpers didn't sit and deliberate rationally over their options. They were eating powdered donuts and drinking coffee one moment and hanging out the side of a flaming building the next. 

 

tl/dr - there are so many fundamental differences between the 9/11 jumpers and a terminally ill patient who chooses euthanasia, I cannot begin to understand why you would suppose the distinction is one of mere semantics.

[puellapaschalis]

Many others jumped with the wild irrational hope that somehow, out there in the wonderfully cool, fresh, sunlit air, away from the darkness, heat, and smoke, they would somehow be saved - hit a balcony or a roof top 20 feet down or get scooped up by firefighters in iron men costumes or something. These are ideas the desperate, panicking, oxygen-deprived brain gets.

 

And that's the other difference - the jumpers didn't sit and deliberate rationally over their options. They were eating powdered donuts and drinking coffee one moment and hanging out the side of a flaming building the next. 

 

tl/dr - there are so many fundamental differences between the 9/11 jumpers and a terminally ill patient who chooses euthanasia, I cannot begin to understand why you would suppose the distinction is one of mere semantics.

 

I wish I could prop this more than once. The difference is clear.

 

At most, I think that whilst we can determine the jumpers' overwhelmingly likely state of mind, given the physical circumstances and what we know about what a lack of oxygen does to the brain, there is a much much smaller (but arguably non-zero) likelihood, given the public pronouncements made, that someone in Mrs Maynard's situation would be in a similar state of mind.
 

[CatherineM]

Some of the people we saw falling had been blown out. We assume they jumped. They broke a window for air and the rush of wind blew them out. One man tried to climb down and list his grip. It illustrates why we have to be compassionate when dealing with suicide issues. We simply can't know what was in the person's mind. Maybe a person jumping from a bridge changes their mind half way down, or in the split second after pulling a trigger. Maybe they had a psychotic break and thought Gid was telling them they could fly.

This "euthanasia" stuff leaves no doubt. We know what they were thinking. Still, I prefer to leave the judgement to God since I can't know the degree of mental anguish they are in. All I can do is hope that I will find a different strength if ever I find myself in that situation.