Not To Disappoint You

[SilentJoy]

 

 It was like living like a Carmelite nun without the benefit of a cooler habit.

 

 

No it wasn't. Carmelite nuns pray a few parts of the Office (sitting and standing) and I think one hour of mental prayer before breakfast and they're allowed to sit for it.
 

Edited October 19, 2014 by SilentJoy

[Slappo]

Anyway, I prayed really hard all week (not that I had the choice on that matter)

tee hee.

 

Sounds like your knees prayed hard too. Maybe you prayed hard for your knees that were praying hard but in fact you were hardly praying? ;-)

[Slappo]

Peace is almost always a big neon sign in a particular direction. :)

Exactly!

 

FP:

Don't take the sign wrong and read "this is your vocation", but instead read it as "you should walk this way and see where it takes you".

[Slappo]

No it wasn't. Carmelite nuns pray a few parts of the Office (sitting and standing) and I think one hour of mental prayer before breakfast and they're allowed to sit for it.
 

And I believe they'll still have fiesta scheduled at some point in the afternoon for an hour. I *think* that's universal to carmelites based on the teachings of their founders St.s John of the Cross and Teresa of Avila. The Carmelite's I visited while discerning had a 2-3pm fiesta where you could play games sometimes they'd watch a movie, read any book you wanted, etc.

[Credo in Deum]

This may be the old curmudgeon in me but I personally think your critique of the Franciscan Brothers is uncharitable. You do not have to say it's awful just because it's not for you. Also saying their claim to be an active community is a damnable lie seems a bit over the top and harsh. There could have been plenty of reasons for why they weren't as active as you would have liked them to be: maybe one of those reasons is because they were praying for the repose of the soul of the mother who had passed on? Maybe God felt you needed a place which showed the importance of a strong prayer life and so he sent you to this active community to show you that even active communities need and have a time of intense prayer? Maybe God knew you needed 8 days of intense prayer in order to hear His calling for you? In any case I don't believe your little 8 days is enough time to get an accurate assessment of how active they really are. I encourage others reading this thread to keep an open mind regarding these Franciscans and to take FP's critique with a huge grain of salt. Sea salt since we want to stay healthy.

Ps. I think the Friars have impecable judgment since AC/DC suckz big ones.

[SilentJoy]

I'm literally going to apply to a diocese that has Dominican Sisters who teach at the Cathedral that Jesus didn't establish a Church, so you can go to any "church" you want, and that there is no mortal sin, that women should be priests, etc, etc.

 

:sad:
 

[PhuturePriest]

This may be the old curmudgeon in me but I personally think your critique of the Franciscan Brothers is uncharitable. You do not have to say it's awful just because it's not for you. Also saying their claim to be an active community is a damnable lie seems a bit over the top and harsh. There could have been plenty of reasons for why they weren't as active as you would have liked them to be: maybe one of those reasons is because they were praying for the repose of the soul of the mother who had passed on? Maybe God felt you needed a place which showed the importance of a strong prayer life and so he sent you to this active community to show you that even active communities need and have a time of intense prayer? Maybe God knew you needed 8 days of intense prayer in order to hear His calling for you? In any case I don't believe your little 8 days is enough time to get an accurate assessment of how active they really are. I encourage others reading this thread to keep an open mind regarding these Franciscans and to take FP's critique with a huge grain of salt. Sea salt since we want to stay healthy.

Ps. I think the Friars have impecable judgment since AC/DC suckz big ones.

 

When sarcasm isn't even allowed on Phatmass, I simply can't speak.

 

They are a wonderful group of men, make no mistake. Very loving, very charitable, and very zealous for their faith and their vocation. I don't literally think praying as much as they do is wrong, and though their assessment of the Satanism of AC/DC and Harry Potter is wrong, I don't think they are heathens for it. I was merely making sarcastic jokes at their expense. If you look, I do this quite a bit, mostly targeting myself. Don't hate just because it happened to be someone other than myself this time.

 

However, I spoke a lot with a very trusted Priest last night, and he agrees with all of my concerns about them. It was a lie when they told me they were a very active community. I was in contact with them by way of phone since I had just turned fifteen years old, and they led me to believe pretty much all they did was active stuff. The fact that they lied about that in order to draw me towards them looks badly on them. Furthermore, the fact that they wouldn't take no for an answer also looks badly on them. When I told them that I didn't feel a calling in a private conversation with one of the Brothers in charge of vocations, he argued with me the whole time. I told him I didn't feel as if I had a Franciscan spirituality, and that I thought I had a Dominican one which centered towards preaching and doing retreats, and he argued with me, saying they do that way more than any Dominican does. Every point I had, he objected to it by saying they did it more. They had an air of "We're better than every other community at everything." The same thing happened when I talked to another friar on the last two days. It doesn't look well on them, and it strikes me as a major red flag about them.

Edited October 19, 2014 by FuturePacker

[Gabriela]

And I believe they'll still have fiesta scheduled at some point in the afternoon for an hour. I *think* that's universal to carmelites based on the teachings of their founders St.s John of the Cross and Teresa of Avila. The Carmelite's I visited while discerning had a 2-3pm fiesta where you could play games sometimes they'd watch a movie, read any book you wanted, etc.

 

Which Carmel did you visit, and when you say "any book you wanted" do you mean "any spiritual book you wanted"?

[Gabriela]

This may be the old curmudgeon in me but I personally think your critique of the Franciscan Brothers is uncharitable. You do not have to say it's awful just because it's not for you. Also saying their claim to be an active community is a damnable lie seems a bit over the top and harsh. There could have been plenty of reasons for why they weren't as active as you would have liked them to be: maybe one of those reasons is because they were praying for the repose of the soul of the mother who had passed on? Maybe God felt you needed a place which showed the importance of a strong prayer life and so he sent you to this active community to show you that even active communities need and have a time of intense prayer? Maybe God knew you needed 8 days of intense prayer in order to hear His calling for you? In any case I don't believe your little 8 days is enough time to get an accurate assessment of how active they really are. I encourage others reading this thread to keep an open mind regarding these Franciscans and to take FP's critique with a huge grain of salt. Sea salt since we want to stay healthy.

Ps. I think the Friars have impecable judgment since AC/DC suckz big ones.

 

Credo, I see your point, but I think most of us reading this (or at least who posted in this thread) recognize FP's "reflections" as simply "the morning after" a difficult retreat. I've discerned, and I've come home really angry at communities, with nothing but bad things to say about them. Then, as time went on, I chilled out and gained perspective and was able to say, "Yeah, ok, I think there are some issues there, but other people do well with them, so I guess it's just not for me."

 

It's a "heat of the moment" kind of thing, and I think most of us understand that. But I know there are people who lurk or just randomly link into Phatmass, and they might not know, so I appreciate what you're saying.

[Gabriela]

When I told them that I didn't feel a calling in a private conversation with one of the Brothers in charge of vocations, he argued with me the whole time. I told him I didn't feel as if I had a Franciscan spirituality, and that I thought I had a Dominican one which centered towards preaching and doing retreats, and he argued with me, saying they do that way more than any Dominican does. Every point I had, he objected to it by saying they did it more. They had an air of "We're better than every other community at everything." The same thing happened when I talked to another friar on the last two days. It doesn't look well on them, and it strikes me as a major red flag about them.

 

I agree that this is a bad sign. I had a community do this once with me over email, and I started to feel really uncomfortable. I was even told "I better get out there soon or else I might lose my vocation".  :pinch:

 

However, I think there are cases where a community just puts the wrong people in the wrong positions (e.g., vocations director, formation director, etc.). Their personalities don't fit the position, or their interaction style just comes across all wrong. If others are entering and prospering in this community, that may be a sign that the community is healthy and they've just made some poor assignments recently.

 

Or it may mean they have serious issues in discernment and formation.

 

Hard to tell...

 

One way to know is to ask outright what their retention rate is. A really healthy community shouldn't be shy about stating this. Some perceive it as a "statistical way" of making a vocation decision, and so look down on it. But if you're a really practically minded guy, you probably want a really practically minded community, and they shouldn't see any problem with asking that.

 

I personally think ALL communities should be required to post their retention rates on their website. But I don't think that'll ever happen. I know of one really transparent community that tells discerners this in the very first conversation, though, and I think that's a really positive thing.

 

Have you looked at the communities of St. John Bosco, FP? Every time I think of you in religious life, I think of these guys: http://www.salesiansofdonbosco.org/

[PhuturePriest]

I agree that this is a bad sign. I had a community do this once with me over email, and I started to feel really uncomfortable. I was even told "I better get out there soon or else I might lose my vocation".  :pinch:

 

However, I think there are cases where a community just puts the wrong people in the wrong positions (e.g., vocations director, formation director, etc.). Their personalities don't fit the position, or their interaction style just comes across all wrong. If others are entering and prospering in this community, that may be a sign that the community is healthy and they've just made some poor assignments recently.

 

Or it may mean they have serious issues in discernment and formation.

 

Hard to tell...

 

One way to know is to ask outright what their retention rate is. A really healthy community shouldn't be shy about stating this. Some perceive it as a "statistical way" of making a vocation decision, and so look down on it. But if you're a really practically minded guy, you probably want a really practically minded community, and they shouldn't see any problem with asking that.

 

I personally think ALL communities should be required to post their retention rates on their website. But I don't think that'll ever happen. I know of one really transparent community that tells discerners this in the very first conversation, though, and I think that's a really positive thing.

 

Have you looked at the communities of St. John Bosco, FP? Every time I think of you in religious life, I think of these guys: http://www.salesiansofdonbosco.org/

 

Many good points. But the attitude he had reflected that of the whole community, which I learned as I discussed it with the rest of them. Only one of them didn't argue that they preach more than Dominicans.

 

People don't really leave once they join, and people typically join once they visit. This is likely due to the fact that it is a very appealing community, but I fear also that it is due to a sort of pushy attitude. They gave an attitude of disbelief that there was anyone in the world who wasn't called to their community, and when I told them I didn't feel called there, they pretty much told me I was wrong and that once I thought about it hard I would realize I was.
 

And I looked into the Salesians about three or four years ago, actually. I even had a phone call with the vocation director, whom was a very wonderful and loving man. I didn't really look into their way of life, and I kind of forgot about them. I'll have to look into them again.

Edited October 19, 2014 by FuturePacker

[Gabriela]

Many good points. But the attitude he had reflected that of the whole community, which I learned as I discussed it with the rest of them. Only one of them didn't argue that they preach more than Dominicans.

 

People don't really leave once they join, and people typically join once they visit. This is likely due to the fact that it is a very appealing community, but I fear also that it is due to a sort of pushy attitude. They gave an attitude of disbelief that there was anyone in the world who wasn't called to their community, and when I told them I didn't feel called there, they pretty much told me I was wrong and that once I thought about it hard I would realize I was.
 

And I looked into the Salesians about three or four years ago, actually. I even had a phone call with the vocation director, whom was a very wonderful and loving man. I didn't really look into their way of life, and I kind of forgot about them. I'll have to look into them again.

 

Hmmm... They may be doing that because you've been talking to them (presumably very enthusiastically, as you do everything else!) for 3 years. They likely thought, "Oh, he's just in the initial shock of the first visit. He's been on this path to us for years, so he'll bounce back."

 

Most people do experience a period of shock when they first visit a very austere community. (The Carthusians tell you it's totally normal to cry your eyes out the first few days.)

 

So here's the lesson I'd take from this (and which I did from my first few visits to communities): Once you feel an attraction, and have had an initial contact with them via phone/email/whatever, JUST GO VISIT. Get it over with. Because it's the only way you can know if it's right, and you'll know right quick once you're there.

 

I know you couldn't do that this time because you weren't 18 yet, but now that you are 18, don't drag out correspondence ever again.  :kiss:

[Credo in Deum]

But I know there are people who lurk or just randomly link into Phatmass, and they might not know, so I appreciate what you're saying.

Thank you since this is why I wrote my post. Sure FP's remarks are fine and dandy for all of us who spend enough time on Phatmass. We're used to his style of writing. Yet this is not an excuse to forget that others visit this site and lurk around and have no idea who FP is or get his style of story telling.

In short there is a very good saying when discussing a religious community and it's, "if you can't say anything nice then don't say anything at all." Saying things like "they lied" is an accusation and one we only have FP's word to go on. There are two sides to every story and unfortunately we don't have the benefit of getting the Friars side of this.

[PhuturePriest]

Thank you since this is why I wrote my post. Sure FP's remarks are fine and dandy for all of us who spend enough time on Phatmass. We're used to his style of writing. Yet this is not an excuse to forget that others visit this site and lurk around and have no idea who FP is or get his style of story telling.

In short there is a very good saying when discussing a religious community and it's, "if you can't say anything nice then don't say anything at all." Saying things like "they lied" is an accusation and one we only have FP's word to go on. There are two sides to every story and unfortunately we don't have the benefit of getting the Friars side of this.

 

I do agree I shouldn't have used their name, but I wasn't thinking at the time I wrote this. If you would like to edit it and say "A community in Indiana", that would be preferred from all sides.

[Credo in Deum]

I do agree I shouldn't have used their name, but I wasn't thinking at the time I wrote this. If you would like to edit it and say "A community in Indiana", that would be preferred from all sides.

Thank you for your understanding. I have removed their name from the thread.