Consensual Incest Is A-ok! Unless Of Course

[puellapaschalis]

Yeah i still dont buy it, the other arguement to that is, two heterosexual catholics can still " bond " in many other ways it doesnt have to be through sexual intercourse, and why cry foul to procreation through science, it is a barbaric mind set that got many good people killed and shunned from the church back in the day.

 

Every child has the right to be conceived by his natural parents in the entirely natural manner. To allow IVF is to divorce procreation from the conjugal act.
 

[blazeingstar]

The same people show up repeatedly on my family tree that it's a wonder that I don't have an extra ear in the middle of my forehead. It's the thing that royalty and hill billies have in common.

I saw a show with people in Australia pushing for this. One couple was a father and daughter. She didn't meet him until she was an adult, but it still gave me the willies.

The thing is, with sperm banks, surrogates and infidelities of all sorts, unless we start requiring DNA tests to marry, you can't know that you aren't related. One of my adopted son's sisters had a child with a half brother. They didn't find out until the child was 6 months old and needed a bone marrow transplant. She scoured back alleys looking for her homeless father to get him tested. That's how they found out they have 5-8 half siblings running around.

 

This is too sad, and too true.  I'm adopted and I knew that I came from a prolific family with people all over the US.  I was very careful in dating to avoid people who looked *too* much like me.  I DCF I knew kids with upwards of 18 half sibilings, typically via sperm doaner Daddy and loosy goosy Mommy.  They didn't know half their siblings, never-mind cousins.  And forget the fact that there was no way to tell.  One girl's mom had a thing for ethnic men, so this blonde-haired, blue eyed Scandinavian looking woman's children varied from pale-Irish looking to half African American, half-Dominican and half-Filipino and and a few others. (she had 7). 

 

That's not even to get started on sperm banks.  There are some men who've fathered well over 100 children in a 5 year span....meaning, those children are prime for being sexual partners in the future.  Or globalization.  I had a campus minister who was abandoned as a baby in vietnam and went back to his village in his 30's to find his family.  Along the way he met a wonderful tour guide from the area...a "souvenir child" like him.  They fell in love. As he researched his roots after months and months they realized they were first cousins.  It was devastating for the both of them.  He used it as an ironic story as to why he was glad he didn't believe in pre-marital sex, but I could tell by the look in his eyes he was broken by what happened.

 

The problem with some of these rules and laws is that they don't take into account the in saneness of the world today. 

[superblue]

Every child has the right to be conceived by his natural parents in the entirely natural manner. To allow IVF is to divorce procreation from the conjugal act.
 

 

so basically now if we follow that train of thought, a child created through IVF , is no longer worth any form of rights, dignity or anything, because that child was created unnaturally, and there for we as a God fearing people should condem and destroy such abominations...

 

ohhh waait,,, noo that isn't right....,,,

 

but we have free will, and if two heterosexuals who are catholic and are married in the church can not concieve then that marriage must be an abomination as well since there is something wrong with them and they can not " bond " through intercourse, so good grief these poor poor people,

 

 

the thinking is illogical, of course every child has the right to be concieved naturally, i wasn't talking about just doing away with natural intercourse to create a child, and i didn't think i'd have to really explain the benefits of IVF to begin with.  We have free will for a reason, and a conscience and a moral compass as well all given to us by God,

 

by this reasoning as well, we really should not adopt a child either, i mean there was no conjugal procreation by the adopting parents so ipsofacto we dont want adopted children, or IVF children, or children out of wedlock,

 

nooo nooooo ring the bell of hypocrsy , God blesses people with children in many many ways we shouldnt put the sin on the child just the parents it makes total sense,

 

what ever this convoluted debate has been going on forever, half a dozen one way or the other the Church will find a way to claim absolute authority on something they have no bloody clue about, and for some reason we are suppose to just chuck our own free will and God given moral compass and common sense out the door, because someone supposedly with a higher educational degree who claims they were divinely chosen to lead and thus can do no wrong says so.

 

 

but IVF, VS  creating a child with a cousin of any degree in the blood line,  IVF wins hands down all the way and the Church and their twisted view on the matter can sit and spin. And I think God can spare some time to explain why He would prefer inbreeding over IVF .

 

 

Can't wait till the debate of cloning comes up.

[superblue]

This is too sad, and too true.  I'm adopted and I knew that I came from a prolific family with people all over the US.  I was very careful in dating to avoid people who looked *too* much like me.  I DCF I knew kids with upwards of 18 half sibilings, typically via sperm doaner Daddy and loosy goosy Mommy.  They didn't know half their siblings, never-mind cousins.  And forget the fact that there was no way to tell.  One girl's mom had a thing for ethnic men, so this blonde-haired, blue eyed Scandinavian looking woman's children varied from pale-Irish looking to half African American, half-Dominican and half-Filipino and and a few others. (she had 7). 

 

That's not even to get started on sperm banks.  There are some men who've fathered well over 100 children in a 5 year span....meaning, those children are prime for being sexual partners in the future.  Or globalization.  I had a campus minister who was abandoned as a baby in vietnam and went back to his village in his 30's to find his family.  Along the way he met a wonderful tour guide from the area...a "souvenir child" like him.  They fell in love. As he researched his roots after months and months they realized they were first cousins.  It was devastating for the both of them.  He used it as an ironic story as to why he was glad he didn't believe in pre-marital sex, but I could tell by the look in his eyes he was broken by what happened.

 

The problem with some of these rules and laws is that they don't take into account the in saneness of the world today. 

 

 

 

Not insenstive to people who go through lives like this, i can just see someone pointing back to this posting, and being like well SB what about this smarty pants,

 

in my arguements towards this topic, i am not speaking in regards to stories like this, where there is no way of possible knowing, i am talking about people who factually know who is who in the family and then instead of chosing to court,date,and marry someone outside the family blood line they decide to stay in the family blood line.

 

You wana know a fairly easy way to know you're not marrying into your own blood line though, pick someone of the opposite race and nationality, the odds of being related have to be out there.....

 

anybeans, remember cloning is coming down the pipe.

[puellapaschalis]

so basically now if we follow that train of thought, a child created through IVF , is no longer worth any form of rights, dignity or anything, because that child was created unnaturally, and there for we as a God fearing people should condem and destroy such abominations...

 

Wrong. It means that a child born through IVF has been denied some of his fundamental rights. Not that he is no longer entitled to any others. It has no (moral) effect on him; it is a condemnation on those who brought his conception about in this way.

[superblue]

Wrong. It means that a child born through IVF has been denied some of his fundamental rights. Not that he is no longer entitled to any others. It has no (moral) effect on him; it is a condemnation on those who brought his conception about in this way.

 

 

hilarious, if ya had quoted the rest of what i said you would have seen i already retorted that answer sarcastically, it isn't like i don't know the answer to this illogical argument,  i already my point in my previous reply and i can see it was missed so i am not going to explain it ,,,

 

don't take it personally,  just like the rational world will never be able to explain to islamic terrorists on why they are wrong, nor be able to reason with them, same thing with some church teachings ( and i do realize i have to explain this, i am not saying the church isevil, i am comparing the stubborn hard headed thinking and teachings that no one wants to consider of which some might be wrong on ), it doesn't matter if they are wrong or not everyones minds are made up  and the rest of us are just stuck with using our God given Free Will and God given common sense on such things, and dang it the explenation popped in anyhow.

[blazeingstar]

Not insenstive to people who go through lives like this, i can just see someone pointing back to this posting, and being like well SB what about this smarty pantaloons,

 

in my arguements towards this topic, i am not speaking in regards to stories like this, where there is no way of possible knowing, i am talking about people who factually know who is who in the family and then instead of chosing to court,date,and marry someone outside the family blood line they decide to stay in the family blood line.

 

You wana know a fairly easy way to know you're not marrying into your own blood line though, pick someone of the opposite race and nationality, the odds of being related have to be out there.....

 

anybeans, remember cloning is coming down the pipe.

 

 

You're not speaking to it.  What you're trying to say is that the rational that the Catholic Church has to prevent this is flawed and therefore other rules must come into play.  Sorry, just because good is created out of something evil, dosn't mean that there wasn't sin.

 

It is sinful for a man to have 9 children with 8 different mothers, and likewise sinful for a woman to have 7 children with 7 different fathers.  Just because they are sinners doesn't mean the children themselves are sinful.

 

Actually, we're more intermixed than we think.  I knew a 6'8" man with skin as black as it gets who was 1/4 Irish.  Atleast in America, you never really know what you are....and while it may be easy to tell some races, those with darker skin tend to have at least a little caucasian or first nation in them somewhere down the line.  Even our first lady is "half white"

 

Given the facts that now about 70% of children are born outside of marriage, and the "father unknown" on the birth certificate has been ever-increasing, chances are society will soon find some blood relatives getting married.  Which is why I'm for genetic testing before marriage.

 

To rationally make the decision to have sex with someone who's your blood relation when met as an adult, well, that's actually a disorder.  It's natures way of trying to deal with the extreme trauma of separation from biological norms.  It's called Genetic Sexual Attraction.  It's well documented.  Here's the wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_sexual_attraction

 

For those who make the decision about someone you knew your whole life, it also tends to do with issues of mental illness, such as agoraphobia.  

 

Lets handle the IFV... its simply good that comes out of sin.  IFV is sin because it separates the body from the act.  The fact is, mistakes happen in the lab.  Also, because more eggs are fertilized than implanted children die...so some children do pay dearly for this sin. God allows life to occur within this sin for whatever reason.   But even with today's technology, many die for that child's life.  How much is it worth to conceive a child? 1? 3? 12?

 

Their is a baby girl, born from IFV, in Ohio, to Lesbian parents upset that the sperm was mixed up and that child is half-black.  It's started a national conversation on race and inequality.  So while God certainly does not condone lesbian sex or IFV, there is a greater good coming out of this very sad venture of these very flawed people.

[Credo in Deum]

SB If you botherd to research IVF and the Church's position you would have realized that while sex is meant to be both unitive and and open to life, the more pressing matter is that during IVF tons of human lives are lost in order to achieve one persons birth. IVF doesn't take just one embryo they use multiple embryos to better the chances of success. The remaining embryos are discarded. As a Catholic or better yet as a human being who understands the basic tenants of biology we know that life begins at conseption and that the embyos which are discarded are not just cells who could have become humans, but rather they ARE humans and tons of them are being sacrificed in the name of IVF.


http://www.lifenews.com/2012/08/28/a-catholic-view-in-vitro-fertilization-the-human-cost/

Yes we have such a stupid Church for giving a shat about the dignity of human beings.

[superblue]

SB If you botherd to research IVF and the Church's position you would have realized that while sex is meant to be both unitive and and open to life, the more pressing matter is that during IVF tons of human lives are lost in order to achieve one persons birth. IVF doesn't take just one embryo they use multiple embryos to better the chances of success. The remaining embryos are discarded. As a Catholic or better yet as a human being who understands the basic tenants of biology we know that life begins at conseption and that the embyos which are discarded are not just cells who could have become humans, but rather they ARE humans and tons of them are being sacrificed in the name of IVF.


http://www.lifenews.com/2012/08/28/a-catholic-view-in-vitro-fertilization-the-human-cost/

Yes we have such a stupid Church for giving a shat about the dignity of human beings.

 

 

dang it ya caught me, i really didnt have a clue about IVF, figured it was just people donating what they got for others to be able to have a child that couldn't.

 

See it isn't that hard to admit when one is wrong, too bad the Church has a bloody insane hard time doing the same thing on other issues.

[Maggyie]

It is sinful for a man to have 9 children with 8 different mothers, and likewise sinful for a woman to have 7 children with 7 different fathers. Just because they are sinners

Nope. You're wrong. There's nothing wrong with having many children with many different fathers (or mothers).

As long as the parents are married at the time this is perfectly acceptable.

In fact in times when death in childbirth was more common or epidemics or outbreaks of violence, this was not unusual.

[Maggyie]

Also on topic.... Hello, Gone With the Wind? It didn't end well for Ashley and Melanie.

[John Ryan]

Incest should not be condoned, because it destroys the social form of the family. I am not sure there is anything intrinsically immoral with it. Mythologically, the human race was produced through incestuous relations. Yet, we are social beings, and given our sociality, it is immoral. Imagine if we allowed incest in the family structure. Basically, parents could raise their own children to be their sexual partners. Groom a new generation to serve their sexual needs. Considering the very real oedipal complex, this is a monstrosity. The basis of human psychosexual development is the sublation of the oedipus complex, and both parents and children need to overcome this. 

 

Incest is nothing in substance like homosexuality, but the idiotic liberals with their idol of abstract freedom cannot discern the difference. The death of capitalism cannot come soon enough, so that we can finally leave all this insanity behind us.

Edited October 11, 2014 by John Ryan

[truthfinder]

Incest should not be condoned, because it destroys the social form of the family. I am not sure there is anything intrinsically immoral with it. Mythologically, the human race was produced through incestuous relations. Yet, we are social beings, and given our sociality, it is immoral. Imagine if we allowed incest in the family structure. Basically, parents could raise their own children to be their sexual partners. Groom a new generation to serve their sexual needs. Considering the very real oedipal complex, this is a monstrosity. The basis of human psychosexual development is the sublation of the oedipus complex, and both parents and children need to overcome this. 

 

Incest is nothing in substance like homosexuality, but the idiotic liberals with their idol of abstract freedom cannot discern the difference. The death of capitalism cannot come soon enough, so that we can finally leave all this insanity behind us.

Because this is part of God's law. He allowed these sorts of relations at the beginning of creation, and now He does not.  And also, there is a spiritual bond between family members. For this reason, canon law also used to ban marriages between baptism/confirmation sponsors and those receiving the sacrament.  

[blazeingstar]

Nope. You're wrong. There's nothing wrong with having many children with many different fathers (or mothers).

As long as the parents are married at the time this is perfectly acceptable.

In fact in times when death in childbirth was more common or epidemics or outbreaks of violence, this was not unusual.

 

Oh come on now.  You know perfectly well that you're taking this out of context.  I was talking about DCYF and kids I knew.  Most were never married and if they were the kids came before or from a different partner.

 

I said mothers and fathers I didn't say married couples.

 

Basically, people sleep around and pop out kids...God allows it, it's still sin, but my point was don't blame the kid...just like you don't in IFV.