Gabriela Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 There's so much talk about Carmelites around here lately I figured I'd ask: Anyone ever visited Terre Haute? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiquitunga Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 I never have, but have been to Des Plaines which is a foundation from there. And they were both founded by Mother Agnes of Jesus. The monasteries (buildings I mean) look very similar on the inside, which I can tell looking at Terre Haute's site (same floors, grey brick walls, similar windows/stained glass) https://picasaweb.google.com/112954809546652959393/CarmelOfStJosephDesPlainesIL#5055957173348261234 I don't care for the look of it, to be honest, but have heard the community is great! They are under the 1990s though, differing from Terre Haute. I believe they are still friends though :) They (Des Plaines) have several new vocations, 5 in the novitiate, and a good sized community at 17. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriela Posted October 5, 2014 Author Share Posted October 5, 2014 I hear everyone mentioning "the 1990s" in reference to Carmels. I don't know anything about Carmels, so what does that mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graciandelamadrededios Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 Please refer to this link: http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/58540-the-discalced-carmelite-nuns-1990-1991-constitutions/ Also, PM so I can send you some soft document related to the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrayerSupporter Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 There is a video on YouTube that gives you brief glimpses of some of the monastery at Terre Haute. It is the invitation to their 2014 Come and See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aedz7nqEWgw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriela Posted October 5, 2014 Author Share Posted October 5, 2014 Please refer to this link: http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/58540-the-discalced-carmelite-nuns-1990-1991-constitutions/ Also, PM so I can send you some soft document related to the subject. Well, that was an extremely thorough link. Everything's totally clear now. Thank you, Gracian! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriela Posted October 5, 2014 Author Share Posted October 5, 2014 Thank you all who have contributed so far! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graciandelamadrededios Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 After reading the thesis, I wrote a summary of events concerning the development and implementation of the Rule and Constitutions that is found in the thesis entitled “POST-CONCILIAR RENEWAL OF THE LEGISLATIVE TEXTS FOR THE ORDER OF THE DISCALCED CARMELITE NUNS OF THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY OF MOUNT CARMEL†1995 by Sr. Mary Kathleen Kuentsler, P.H.J.C.: January 7, 1966 A questionnaire was sent by Carmelite Generalate to the Nuns all over the world to be used collect information for the Friars General chapter next year May 1967 The extraordinary General Chapter took place in Rome in two sessions. The Fathers passed the following proposals for Nuns on this first session: 1. That Fathers Provincial be delegated to set up their respective regions a committee of Friars to work with the Nuns in their renewal. 2. That permission be given to Nuns to meet as often as necessary to discuss and formulate the elements of their renewal. September 1968 In the second session, Father Michelangelo Batiz, Superior of the Order announced that the SCRIS has negated the right of the of the chapter fathers to help the nuns or deal with their problems of renewal and experimentation October 15, 1969 Another questionnaire was sent to the Nuns by Father Michelangelo concerning enclosure and divine office July 1971 Based on the 300,000 answers to said questionnaire, a document “Statutes on Enclosure of the Nuns of the Order of the Discalced Carmelites†written by the Generalate in Rome and approved by SCRIS on experimental basis for a period of then years 1971 Father Michelangelo developed “Basic Legislation†the first text, 114 pages long but majority of Nuns did not accept this legislation and as a result, it was dropped 1973 Father Finian Monahan became the Superior General and he began the process again. June 2, 1974 Father Finian issued a letter recommending the following schema for the new legislation of the Discalced Carmelite Nuns: 1. Rule (of St. Albert ) 2. Primitive Constitutions of O.H.M. St. Teresa with declarations containing theological principles, modifications and additions 3. Directory-Ceremonial 777 monasteries responded 655 voted YES 34 monasteries favored numbers 1 and 2 but expressed reservation on number 3 14 voted NO 74 monasteries asked that Primitive Constitutions be replaced with Alcala Constitutions, majority of these Carmels were from Spain 48 monasteries and 11 monasteries from Italy Father Monahan gave two reasons for his preference for Teresas 1657 Constitutions: 1. the 1567 Constitutions were written by Teresa personally while the Alcala was not 2. Only 13% of the monasteries world wide observed the Alcala text March 17, 1977 As a result, a document “Declaration for the Updating of the “Primitive†Constitutions of the Discalced Nuns of the Order of the Blessed Virgin Mary of Mount of Carmel in Accordance with the Directives of the Second Vatican Council†was written and a decree was issued on that date. An accompanying letter from Agostino Mayer, OSB approving said document “ad expirementum.†From the very beginning, the “Association of St. Teresa†mostly in Spain rejected the “Declarationâ€, in some cases before they saw it or before it was even published. Sr. Therese of Jesus, OCD Prioress of Carmel de la Theotokos in Harissa , Lebanon claimed to be the one to set the process of resistance in motion. She is still the Prioress of the same Carmel right now and we corresponded for sometime regarding books about St. Maravillas. January 16, 1981 A growing fear of schism within the Order is developing and Cardinal Pironio presented this worry to the Pope. 1981 extension time was given to the Statutes 1982 another extension was given February 1982 During the evaluation of the “Declarations,†Father General explained in his letter the procedure to be followed by the individual Nuns and each monastery: “…in conformity with the criterion set down by the Holy Father in his letter on 23rd February… Each and every one, communities and Nuns, have to assume responsibility, they may devolve it upon no-one, within or outside the community, and no one may assume it in the name of another.†February 11, 1982 An important meeting concerning the problem were attended by the Pope, Cardinal A. Ballestero, Cardinal E. Pironio, (now Cardinal) E. Martinez-Somalo, Archbishop A. Mayer and the Superior General of OCD. March 6, 1982 Even though each Nun was to give their own evaluation without outside influences this did not always happen. The United Carmels sent out a circular letter from La Aldehuela signed by Dolores of Jesus, President of the Association of St. Teresa, to all monasteries of the United Carmels which member monasteries are around 150. This letter told them what response they should give. I wish to tell you what we must do, since it is indispensable that we all do the same thing. Thus the genuine union we have will be shown. They tell us from Rome that this is very important. In the response to Father General… there is no need to analyze the Declarations but only to state briefly and clearly why we do not want them, saying instead that we want: “CONSTITUTIONS OF OUR HOLY MOTHER TERESA OF JESUS OF 1581, ADAPTED TO VATICAN II, WITH THE EXISTING STATUTE ON ENCLOSURE INCLUDED IN THE CONSTITUTIONS, ACCORDING TO THE TEXT WE HOPE YOU HAVE ALREADY RECEIVED.â€â€¦ it is desirable that this paragraph in capital letters be the same. July 7, 1982 As per direction of the Pope, at the end of the experimentation period, Father Philip Sainz de Baranda sent a questionnaire to the Nuns. The results of the questionnaire and personal letters of the Nuns were given to the commission of ten Discalced Carmelite Friars from various countries were set up with the approval of the Congregation for Religious. October 1982 A presentation of new Statutes for the Association of St. Teresa which led the formation of Carmelos Unidos (United Carmels). This group of Carmels, lead by Mother Maria Josefa of the Heart of Jesus, OCD, Prioress of Cerro de los Angeles Carmel, organized itself around the Association of St. Teresa. June 16, 1983 The commission finished their work (see July 7, 1982) July 11, 1983 A report was presented to Cardinal E. Pironio, Prefect of the Congregation for Religious. This document “Analysis and Synthesis of the Replies of the Communities of the Discalced Carmelite Nuns to the Consultation on their Legislation†gave a clear view of the Nuns’ attitude. 616 monasteries answered that said “Declaration†were in accordance with what the Church were asking in terms of their renewal 147 monasteries opposed said document. 10 monasteries admitted that they never studied the document 60 monasteries admitted that they had not put them into practice even if the Superior General and SCRIS had directed them to do so during the experimental period of 1977-1982. January 22, 1984 Father General wrote to the Pope asking assistance where he sited he wanted to resolve the problem in a definitive way and he asked the Supreme Pontiff not permit two text of legislation for the Nuns in order to safeguard the unity of the Order. 1984 During the first months of the year, Father General consulted with different experts in the Order; they developed the following studies: Unity of the Order Consequences of a Separation The Charism of the Order March 3, 1984 These 3 studies and a letter were presented to Cardinal Pironio May 14, 1984 Father Superior General met with the new Prefect, Cardinal Jerome Hamer, OP, hoping to hasten the process of promulgating the “Declarations†as the definitive legislation. June 1984 The Generalate updated the Declarations to meet the requirement of the new Code of Canon Law and sent them to SCRIS for approval. September 15, 1984 SCRIS replied in a letter to the Father Superior General, that the congregation does not consider it opportune for the moment to grant what was solicited since the delicate question of the legislation is being studied. October 15, 1984 A letter from Cardinal Agostino Casaroli informed Father Baranda that the Supreme Pontiff had decided to intervened personally. The letter outlined the criteria to be used for future development of the legislation for the Discalced Carmlite Nuns. Said letter listed the following new normative elements that would make up the future legislation as directed by the Pope: a. The legislation of the Discalced Carmelite Nuns will comprise the following parts, all of which will be normative: the primitive Rule (also called the Rule of Saint Adalberto) (Albert), of 1247, observed by the Saint Teresa; the 1581 Constitutions of the Holy Foundress with appropriate adaptations; additional chapters to include those necessary norms not envisioned by the Saint and required by the present general legislation of the Church. b. The adaptation mentioned above, intended especially to clarify those secondary points which are no longer relevant to present conditions, could be inserted into the text itself for the constitutions or placed in footnotes. c. An “Introduction†should preface the legislative corpus, containing the evangelical and theological principles and the spiritual and ecclesial aims of the Carmelite charism. The Constitutions of 1581 will be, therefore, the framework for the legislative corpus. October 27, 1984 Father Baranda wrote a letter addressed to the Order to accompany Cardinal Casaroli’s letter. He wrote “Undoubtedly, for the big majority of the Order, Nuns and Friars, the directives of the Holy Father will come as an unexpected surprise.†United Carmels kept presenting their own preferred adapted text of the 1581 Constitutions over the years, while rejecting all other text prepared by others. Sister Theres of Jesus, Prioress of Harissa Carmel wrote: …. we drew up a sample text, with the help of other Carmels (“United Carmelsâ€), and presented it to the Holy Father, with the signatures of some 150 communities. We requested, solely for ourselves, the privilege of continuing to live within the Church, according to the Constitutions of our Holy Mother, appropriately adapted. Portion taken from the letter of Therese of Jesus to Marguerite Marie de Jesus dated February 18, 1991. October 9, 1985 The Congregation for Religious organized the plan approved by the Pope based on the framework the Pope himself provided. November 12, 1984 A commission of 6 Carmelite Friars chosen by Cardinal Hamer, Prefect of SCRIS, began their work on the new legislation. The commission was chosen according to three criteria: 1. special theological, historical and juridical competence on the Teresian Carmel 2. residence in Rome to facilitate the possibility of consulting and meeting with the experts 3. willingness to work on the text in total responsibility for the directives of the Holy Father and CRIS Fathers Jesus Castellano and Arnaldo Arnaldo Pignam were responsible for “The Preface†Fathers Valentino Mecca and Eugenio Gurratxoga Aramburi adapted the “Constitutions of 1581â€. Fathers Pietro Zubicta and Angel Batiz developed the “Added Chapters†The commission was to examine the materials collected, including the text of the Declaration, develop a first draft of the three points and send it to all the Discalced Carmelite Nuns for their comments and suggestions. They call it “Draft-Legislation.†October 15, 1986 The Congregation for Religious sent the documentation to all Carmels with accompanying letter asking the Nuns to examine as a community the “Plan of Legislation†and to answer four general questions: 1. Does it seem to you that the project responds to the directions of the Holy Father? 2. What is your judgment of the First Part? a. Does it express the mind of St. Teresa of Jesus and the Tradition of the Order? b. Are there lacunae in regard to the essential elements of the spiritual heritage of the Order? 3. How do you judge the work on the Constitutions of Alcala, keeping in mind the revised Code of Canon Law 4. Does the Third Part, with the Chapters added, seem to correspond to the Tradition of the Order and the Code of Canon Law? March 30, 1987 The deadline for returning the response was extended beyond said date attributing it to the delay of receiving the documents. June 30, 1987 Having received the answers from the Nuns, Cardinal Hamer submitted them to the Pope. This was accompanied by a report of an examination for the fundamental reasons for the answers and a draft of general report. It was submitted to an expert in statistics, Father Silvano Sarti, SDB. The data was analyze by the Secretariat of the Faculty for Education of the Salesianum. April 16, 1988 The conclusion were handed over with two reports containing the explanation of the relevant date on the four proposed questions to the Nuns. It is called “Synthesis of the Answer†which showed that 798 monasteries that replied to said questionnaire voted negative toward the proposed “Draft-Legislation.†April 30, 1988 The problem of the Discalced Carmelite legislation was again discussed with the Pope. He entrusted to the “Pleanarium†of the Congregation for Religious the task of developing the process to bring this to a conclusion. Nov 29 – Dec 2, 1988 The plenary session of 23 cardinals was held and after detailed examination of the issue, The “Plenarium†agreed unanimously on five recommendations: 1. It is necessary to proceed with a certain urgency 2. The Legislation will be faithfully conformed to Can 587 (c.f. also the Motu Propio “Ecclesia Sanctaeâ€, II, 14), which distinguishes between fundamental code (Constitutions) and the complementary ones. 3. All Carmels will have the same fundamental code – a united and organic text – which will include everything essential for living a contemplative life according to the Teresian charism. This code will bear the name of “Constitutions.†4. For the redaction of these Constitutions, the point of departure will be the “Declaration†of 1977, which will be corrected and completed according to the results of the two consultations (1983 and 1986-1987), taking into account the indications of the Fathers of the “Plenarium†and of the competent authorities. 5. Within the limits of the complementary codes, the various legitimate traditions of Carmel can regulate their religious life according to the particular norms, on condition, however, that the provisions of the Constitutions are safeguarded. In order to guarantee a greater stability, these norms will be subject to the approval of the Holy See. December 3, 1988 The recommendation of the “Plenarium†were approved by the Supreme Pontiff. April 29, 1989 A letter from Cardinal Hamer gave assurances that entrusting the redaction of the Constitutions by the Supreme Pontiff to the Congregation for Religious was a sufficient guarantee for safeguarding the nature, purpose, spirit and task of the Order. October 1989 After several months of working to develop a text based on the new decision of the Pope. The commission finished the new legislative text. November 7, 1989 The Prioress of Cerro de los Angeles along with two other Nuns traveled to Rome and had met with the Pope, and also they passed through the Congregation for Religious. June of 1990 The decree was prepared and given to the Supreme Pontiff. Everything seemed in order to finally bring to conclusion the updating of the legislation for the Discalced Carmelite Nuns December 11, 1990 Father Baranda issued a letter informing the Order that the Supreme Pontiff had again made another decision concerning the minority of group of Nuns in the Order. He approved the text which Mother Dolores of Jesus, Prioress of the Monastery of St. Joseph, Avila and Mother Maria Josefa of the Heart of Jesus, Prioress of the Monastery of Cerro de lost Angeles, Getafe (Madrid) had presented to him directly in the name of 92 monasteries. This text, the Rule and Constitutions (1581), followed the guidelines of Cardinal Casaroli’s letter. The letter assured the rest of the Order that the text being prepared by the Congregation for Religious has not been rejected, but only that its decree of implementation would be postponed. Enclosed with the announcement of the Father General is the list of 92 Carmels (plus another 5) from 14 different countries who have asked for and received the 1990 Constitutions. Spain 58 monasteries Peru 6 monasteries France 5 monasteries USA 5 monasteries Poland 4 monasteries Brazil 4 monasteries Argentina 4 monasteries Venezuela 3 monasteries Belgium 2 monasteries England 2 monasteries Lebanon 1monastery Senegal 1 monastery Holland 1 monastery Portugal 1 monastery February 14, 1991 There were reports that some Carmels in Spain and Poland included on the original 92 monasteries had withdrawn due to the change of the Teresian position as regards the Superior General of the Order. September 17, 1991 The decree for the Constitutions prepared by CRIS was finally issued. There are now two approved text plus a “compromise legislationâ€, which is contrary to goal of the “Plenariumâ€; one unified text for all Nuns. This “compromise legislation†is a hybrid meaning this third type has the following as its heading: MONASTERIES THAT HAVE CHOSE THE 1990 CONSTUTIONS but have obtained from the Apostolic See the faculty to follow the 1991 Constitutions in all points that refer to the Superior General. These monasteries are: Italy – San Simone Di Sannicola Poland – Katowice , Lodz , Wloclawek-Michelin Other monasteries tried to get the same privilege but were refused since the Holy See did not want a third, compromise text for the Order. (My note: Taiwan Carmels are not included on the list who adopted the Hybrid Text as the thesis was written however, the Holy See probably allowed some 1990 Carmels who desired to remain faithful to the Superior General. This means they will not follow the article 133 of the 1990 Text and follow the articles of the 1991 Text pertaining to the relationship with the Superior General of the Order) Along with the decree of the 1991 text, there was also another directive given to the Nuns in which they are to decide which two texts in vigor, 1990 or 1991 they intended to use. Those who are following the 1990 could simply reaffirm their previous decisions made by the Prioresses. October 3, 1991 A letter from Cardinal Hamer accompanied 1991 text. The differences between the two text were explained. He quoted from a letter from the Pope issued in October 1, 1991: …both texts, equally approved by the Church, seek to be a faithful interpretation of the Teresian charism. This remains unaltered, as well as the style of life proposed by the Holy Mother in her Constitutions and other writings. The differences do not refer, therefore, either to the substance of the Teresian Carmelite contemplative charism, or to the necessary and contant return to the primitive inspiration. They correspond, rather, to the diverse modalities of interpreting adaptation to the changed conditions of the times, (cfr. Perfectae Caritatis n. 2) and the formulation of legislation for religious institutes, the approbation of which is the exclusive competence of the Holy See (canons 578 and 587). Said directive given to the Nuns was that they were to make their choice in the Chapter of the Monastery by an absolute majority of valid votes and their decision must be communicated to the Holy See by the December 25, 1992 December 25, 1992 At this date, all votes are now in. A final report brought the long struggle to an end. Out of 869 monasteries around the world, only 125 monasteries in 19 countries choose the 1990 text. Spain counted 59 Carmels almost half the entire number (125), the remaining are found in 18 other countries. In those same 19 countries there were also monasteries have chosen to follow the 1991 text. Overall 744 monasteries, out of 869. A little more than 14 % are using the 1990 Constitutions and 85 are using the 1991 Constitutions. This thesis is the basis for the article "The Fractured Face of Carmel" written by Sr. Kate Kuenstler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graciandelamadrededios Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 There are also excerpts of both 1991 and 1990 Constitutions of Discalced Carmelite Nuns on this thread: http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/129496-carmelite-customs/page-17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiquitunga Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 There is a video on YouTube that gives you brief glimpses of some of the monastery at Terre Haute. It is the invitation to their 2014 Come and See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aedz7nqEWgw & here's another one :like: I like all that she says (although I wish she talked about the scapular as Our Lady's Habit, but, I believe it's true what she says about the scapular they wore originally being something of an apron to protect the Habit underneath, at least they say this in the Notting Hill documentary No Greater Love, but after the apparition to St. Simon Stock & the devotion that followed it became something different, the nun said) anyway though, again, I like what say she says, and think this is beautiful. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TO4uqHGxUiI and yeah, both videos really remind me of the Des Plaines monastery! the interior seems exactly the same, at least the outside parts I saw. but please forgive me for hijacking the thread a bit with that... :tomato: the OP was asking about Terre Haute specifically. no one said anything, but just a general apology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiquitunga Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 actually watching it again, she really didn't have much time or they only showed a few seconds of her response to what the scapular is, and what she says is true. also, I just checked in the traditional rite of investiture (from 1932) and like in the Teresa de Los Andes movie, when the scapular is placed on the new Novice, the priest (it specifics that it is a priest, although when it is done completely in private in some Carmels now (including those under either Constitutions) I'm guessing it can be a member of the community) anyway, what is read is, "Take upon thee the yoke of Christ, which is sweet and whose burden is light" (translation from the Latin) anyway, so it was a good explanation :like: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graciandelamadrededios Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 There's so much talk about Carmelites around here lately I figured I'd ask: Anyone ever visited Terre Haute? Terre Haute Carmel is no longer wearing the day veils tucked under the Scapular, they only have one veil now, same custom with Port Tobacco Carmel. Traditionally, a veil is tucked under the scapular of a Discalced Carmelite Novice or Nun - white or black veil, and they place over the tucked veil, the communion veil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
be_thou_my_vision Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 I have visit the Terre Haute Carmelites. They are fantastic! Very kind sisters. There are several countries represented among them... quite multicultural. I visited twice, but never went on retreat. I was extremely attracted to them though, but it was pretty clear I wouldn't do well in the cloister. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brandelynmarie Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 I have visit the Terre Haute Carmelites. They are fantastic! Very kind sisters. There are several countries represented among them... quite multicultural. I visited twice, but never went on retreat. I was extremely attracted to them though, but it was pretty clear I wouldn't do well in the cloister. Could you please give us more details? More impressions? Or could you please email me at the address on my profile? :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiquitunga Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 a PMer entered there and is a Novice now :like: I forgot whether she made it public but she did. http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/121369-goodbye-pm-vs/ http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/130015-soonercatholics-clothing-at-terre-haute-carmel/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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