Colleen Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 [quote name='voiciblanche' date='Jun 10 2004, 04:54 PM'] I don't think it's worthwhile to fight over whether or not voting for Bush would be a sin on the subject of war - voting for him is a sin because of his stances on other things. He's not exactly a stauch pro-lifer. [/quote] But to vote for the opposite or to not vote at all would result in even greater evil. We would end up with Kerry's policies, which are some of the most horrible policies on abortion in the whole American politcal scene. I wouldn't rather have a president who is vehemently pro-abortion and supported the war at the beginning in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
voiciblanche Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 Well, yes. However, I'm sure there's a politician in the independent parties that doesn't have any beliefs or campaigns that contradict the Faith. Personally, the idea of voting for whoever is the "least evil" doesn't do it for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleflower+JMJ Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 voting is a matter of "stopping and limiting" evil that can prevail oh and phatcatholic is right. awesome debating (iacobus, al, qfnol etc.) and awesome thinking...we got great minds here at phatmass. +JMJ+ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iacobus Posted June 10, 2004 Author Share Posted June 10, 2004 Did you read what I said about Lumen Gentium? You might have missed it becuase I put it in a quote box but here I will post it again. [quote]This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will. it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will. [/quote] JPII said the war was immoral. JPII is the Pope. Lumen Gentium is a teaching of the Church. If JPII is the Pope and he said that the war is immoral and unjust we need to submit to his descion. This is shown by the Document [i]Lumen Gentium[/i] of the Second Vatican Counil in paragraph 25. We are obliged to adhere to "judgments made by him." If the statements are not [i]ex cathedra[/i] it doesn't matter. The role of the office of the Pontiff requires us to submit to his thinking. He doesn't have to declare Iraq war is immoral [i] ex cathedra[/i] for us to be obliged to ahere to his statements. And as to the current info we have, it is regradless. We need to know before invading a nation-state that they war is just or not. We cannot invade and hope the findings are in our favor. We have to be 100% sure of it. And when Mr. Powell went to the UN seeking to have Res. 1441's force act for non-complance enacted he played the US's intelegneces best cards. He needed the security conuincil to vote yes without exception and only the best intel could possibly convine them to change a nay to a yay vote. And as to JPII's statements possible being a assumation, that would not change it. He publicly said that the war in Iraq was immoral. And to the proof of Lumen Gentium. And lastly, as to the apples and oranges. If an war is inmoral and unjust what does it become but murder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 [quote name='voiciblanche' date='Jun 10 2004, 04:59 PM'] Well, yes. However, I'm sure there's a politician in the independent parties that doesn't have any beliefs or campaigns that contradict the Faith. [/quote] But still, that person (unfortunately) probably doesn't have a great chance of becoming President. In reality, it's going to be Bush or Kerry who will be the next president. Not Nader or anyone else. [quote]Personally, the idea of voting for whoever is the "least evil" doesn't do it for me.[/quote] I don't like the idea, either, but sometimes you just have to. For example, in the NY Senate election a few years ago, both candidates were very pro-choice, but it was okay to vote for the less pro-choice one. Sadly, it didn't work out. But perhaps if more people had done so, it wouldn't have happened. I don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 [quote]And as to JPII's statements possible being a assumation, that would not change it. He publicly said that the war in Iraq was immoral. And to the proof of Lumen Gentium.[/quote] Eh, I see your point. But I don't think it is as clear as that. Otherwise the Pope would tell us, as his flock, not to suppor the war. Although it is his opinion that the war is immoral, and we should acknowledge this opionion, he has not expressed his opinion that Catholics should not support the war. In fact, is there a public statement from the Pope to the Catholic community that the war is unjust. I think the Press coverage of his private conversation with Bush is all we have ( I may be wrong). In this case, his opinion given to Bush does not apply to us, since infallible or otherwise, his opinion was not expressed to his flock. And in this case, because he is addressing a Protestant, not the Catholic Community, then his opinion should be taken not as the Roman Pontif, but as Karol W. I just don't think it is as clear as you think - otherwise, at least on Phatmass, you wouldn't have devout Pope / Church / Catholic lovers debating this topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crusader1234 Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 [quote]Well, yes. However, I'm sure there's a politician in the independent parties that doesn't have any beliefs or campaigns that contradict the Faith. Personally, the idea of voting for whoever is the "least evil" doesn't do it for me. [/quote] Amber is too cool for school haha. I think its important to remember that Bush isnt exactly an angel of pro life or any other subject for that batter. [quote]In fact, is there a public statement from the Pope to the Catholic community that the war is unjust. I think the Press coverage of his private conversation with Bush is all we have ( I may be wrong). In this case, his opinion given to Bush does not apply to us, since infallible or otherwise, his opinion was not expressed to his flock. And in this case, because he is addressing a Protestant, not the Catholic Community, then his opinion should be taken not as the Roman Pontif, but as Karol W. [/quote] I totally agree with this. However, just because his message was not adressed to us, does not mean it does not still apply. The letters in the Bible, they arent adressed to us, but they apply to various aspects of life undeniably. And even if these words are the words of 'Karol W', aren't these words still more important than the words of Bush? And as Jake said, just because something isnt ex cathedra, doesnt mean it is something that we can disregard. [quote]But still, that person (unfortunately) probably doesn't have a great chance of becoming President. In reality, it's going to be Bush or Kerry who will be the next president. Not Nader or anyone else.[/quote] Well true, and I'm Canadian so this doesn't apply in the same manner - however think about the small guy. The guy from some small town trying to get the Catholic viewpoint into the Presidential office, doesnt he deserve some support? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted June 11, 2004 Share Posted June 11, 2004 [quote name='voiciblanche' date='Jun 10 2004, 05:59 PM'] Well, yes. However, I'm sure there's a politician in the independent parties that doesn't have any beliefs or campaigns that contradict the Faith. Personally, the idea of voting for whoever is the "least evil" doesn't do it for me. [/quote] It would be wrong for Kerry to get into office for a few reasons. No one else besides Bush really has a chance, so in that way it would be less wrong for Bush to come into office. He has been a supporter of getting rid of partial birth abortions. Kerry would bring them back. That in itself has saved a good number of baby's lives. It would be wrong for us to let this go back to how it was a few years ago...and sad. By the way, the fact that he supports capital punishment (who don't like him for this reason) isn't necessarily bad. I know very often people think it should be done away with, but in the CCC, it says that capital punishment can be accepted. My opinion on this is that it is used way too often. Now I'm not so sure that he's not pro-life. One of the things that the Pope has said through example is that you can't change everything overnight. You can't just say that you'll stop all abortions at once. You must do it one step at a time. Just real quick opinions I have. I really like what Jake has said! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crusader1234 Posted June 11, 2004 Share Posted June 11, 2004 Just out of curiousity, why does everyone here scream ABORTION whenever another issue comes up? And by the way, if Bush is so pro-life, why hasnt he done something about Abortion in his CURRENT term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted June 11, 2004 Share Posted June 11, 2004 (edited) Partial birth abortions...... Not that I condone this, but he probably got distracted by wars and stuff too. Then again, Congress must pass the laws, though he should push for them to be passed. Edited June 11, 2004 by qfnol31 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted June 11, 2004 Share Posted June 11, 2004 [quote name='Aloysius' date='Jun 10 2004, 01:07 PM'] The world is a better place without Saddam. [/quote] Do you say this from a democratic stance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crusader1234 Posted June 11, 2004 Share Posted June 11, 2004 The world isn't a better place without Saddam. The world is a better place without his regime however The fact that they got rid of saddam is secondary to the fact that they started an unjust war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
voiciblanche Posted June 11, 2004 Share Posted June 11, 2004 Note about pro-life - Pro-life doesn't just mean you don't support abortion. It means stem cell research and cloning and stuff life that, and it also means the death penalty - which Bush supports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crusader1234 Posted June 11, 2004 Share Posted June 11, 2004 I repeat: Amber is too cool for school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted June 11, 2004 Share Posted June 11, 2004 [quote name='voiciblanche' date='Jun 10 2004, 11:12 PM'] Note about pro-life - Pro-life doesn't just mean you don't support abortion. It means stem cell research and cloning and stuff life that, and it also means the death penalty - which Bush supports. [/quote] LoL, which is why I made my comment about the death penalty. It's not always bad. Where else do you see him falter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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