Something That Struck Me Today When I Was

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Iacobus' date='Jun 10 2004, 04:28 AM'] Yes Flowery I agree. But when someone rejects the Church (as a Catholic of cousre) that is reason not to vote for them. [/quote]
All the more reasons not to let Kerry get into office. At least Bush has the USCCB on his side...Kerry doesn't have quite that much support...

[Iacobus]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Jun 10 2004, 04:29 AM'] All the more reasons not to let Kerry get into office. At least Bush has the USCCB on his side...Kerry doesn't have quite that much support... [/quote]
You didn't see that? Bush is willing to approve a Plan B abortion pill now. He reversed his views.

[littleflower+JMJ]

it what happens when one isnt catholic....and a faithful one at that

i shudder at the thought of kerry's ideas/plans

[qfnol31]

[url="http://www.mcjonline.com/news/00b/20001005a.htm"]This is an interesting view on what Bush said about the pill[/url]

[Iacobus]

[quote]I agree with that whole-heartily. This is one reason I don't think the war should have taken place. This is the reason I disagree most with it.  However, like I've said before, the USCCB has said that citizens could make up their own mind...I think that given more time, a just cause for war probably could have been given. The fact that I disagree with having gone into war can be a cause of struggle between me and my friends.[/quote]

Yes. But I still see the Bishop of Rome as higher than the Bishop of Rockford.

[quote]What I meant when I said that is that we probably wanted to go to war because we had been attacked, and I have no idea why else. To be honest, I can't figure out why so many Americans wanted to go to war. If I remember correctly, the original reasoning given was the threat for illegal missles, so we "went on behalf of the UN," but at the same time we disobeyed them. Now I want to stick in my own two cents here, I don't care for the UN much at times.  Love the people, but some of their actions are questionable.[/quote]

Well lol. What can I say? You are right there.

I think our little dialogue has reached the point of "We are agreeing, what was the issue again?" RDF!

[Aloysius]

I'm tired of all this.

The world is gonna work as the world is gonna work.

John Paul II warned Bush that it would be an immoral war.

The war happened anyway, since it happened all we can do now is support it.

The world is a better place without Saddam.

They found SARIN GAS (capable of killing 10,000) people in Iraq. If that's not a weapon of MASS DESTRUCTION, i don't know what is.

I respectfully disagree with what my Pope said before the war began. He spoke as a political leader, a shepherd of his flock which included some people in Iraq, he spoke as the Bishop of Rome and Patriarch of the Roman Catholic Church, he did not, however, speak as the Rock on which the Church is built.

We cannot say "blessed are you, Karol Wvoitiwa (excuse the sp), for flesh and blood have not revealed to you that this is an unjust war but my father in heaven" because it just isn't true.


I believe that 9 times out of 10 you cannot judge the justice of a war until you have historical heindsight. The Pope was hoping for a peaceful solution, Bush didn't think there was any left. This was of course, a continuation of the war that began some 15 years ago. Saddam had 12 years to comply, he did not comply. The United Nations had exhasted basically every other means, and Saddam was still a thread to world stability.

I thank God for the good this war is doing in the world, and ask forgiveness on behalf of our country for any bad it may do to the citizens of Iraq. But i do believe it is doing real good in the world. In historical heindsight i believe this will be seen as a great victory for the sake of peace in the Middle East.

[Iacobus]

[quote]John Paul II warned Bush that it would be an immoral war.[/quote]

Than it is immoral and we cannot support it.

[quote]The war happened anyway, since it happened all we can do now is support it.[/quote]

I beg to defer. I see a real diffence between supporting the war and support the troops. We have to support the attempts to fix the mess the war made and the troops trying to fix it but we don't and shouldn't support the war, per se.

[quote]The world is a better place without Saddam.[/quote]

Again that is largly debatable. Iraq shows signs that it may desend into a fundmetal Islamic state. Under Saddam there was in every major city a Christian Church. Compere that to a possible furture Iraq like Iran is today. So is Iraq really better? Is the world?

But regardless the reason of regime change cannot never alone be reason for war.

"War is never just another means that one can choose to employ for settling differences between nations." ~ JP2s Address to the diplomatic corps

[quote]They found SARIN GAS (capable of killing 10,000) people in Iraq. If that's not a weapon of MASS DESTRUCTION, i don't know what is.[/quote]

Was that proved? The fact that it dropped from the RADAR in such sort a time isn't saying anything good for the trutfulness of that gas being sarin. So that argument is kinda null until they find something that pans out in the lab as well as the semi-un trustable field tests.

[quote]I respectfully disagree with what my Pope said before the war began. He spoke as a political leader, a shepherd of his flock which included some people in Iraq, he spoke as the Bishop of Rome and Patriarch of the Roman Catholic Church, he did not, however, speak as the Rock on which the Church is built.[/quote]

The pope does not have to make his statment infallible. As Catholics if the Pope says something, though his authoirty as the teacher, we are bound to respect it. The Pope says something it, ever if not declared infallible, is to be consdiered true until proven wrong by a pope. It is part of the office.

[quote]I believe that 9 times out of 10 you cannot judge the justice of a war until you have historical heindsight. The Pope was hoping for a peaceful solution, Bush didn't think there was any left. This was of course, a continuation of the war that began some 15 years ago. Saddam had 12 years to comply, he did not comply. The United Nations had exhasted basically every other means, and Saddam was still a thread to world stability.[/quote]

Than 9 times out of 10 you cannot go to war. We can never, as Christians, engage in a war and hope and pray that in the end it will be justified. We must know and be createin that the war is just before we invade.

Saddam had 12 years to comply. To the best of our current knowledge he did. The UN did not exhast every other means. It would take longer than Nov of '02 to March of '03 to exhast every diplomatic means avialbe in the world.

Bush may not have thought there was any left but most of the world did. Inculding JPII and last I knew, we as Catholic, left decisons like morality and ethics up to the Pope and not the leader. A war planner is always going to think his war is just. That doesn't mean it is. Bush was a war planner. JPII wasn't.

[quote]I thank God for the good this war is doing in the world, and ask forgiveness on behalf of our country for any bad it may do to the citizens of Iraq. But I do believe it is doing real good in the world. In historical heindsight i believe this will be seen as a great victory for the sake of peace in the Middle East. [/quote]

I am unsure this is doing much good. The US has no international diplo muscle anymore after running out of rope on the uniliteralism cord and coming to the UN last week asking for help. One of the UNs stipulations? The US and DoD have no control of international troops in Iraq. They are all under UN command. Iraq has left the US, as long as Bush is pres, as a international lame duck.

Iraq is a good example entropy. The tendence of a system to lose data and fall into choas and disorder as it runs. The Kurds are now threating to pull out of the new goverment becasue the Sunnis won't let them hold either the PM or Pres spots. Saddam had the ethnic ravials under control and now they are flaring up. Civil war is possible, and likly. War lords and their private armies still run Iraq.

The more secular or pro US a leader is in Iraq the lower his poll numbers and support, even within his own tribal unit. The more anti US and pro fundmental Islmaic the leader is the higher his numbers are, even outside of his tribe.

We go in and force upon unwilling people our system of doing things, you normaly have huge problems. Look what happened when in the 1950's we helped a man from Coral Gables take power in Cuba. A few years later? Castro. People don't like having someone manner and culture pushed upon them.

[Jake Huether]

I don't know if any one has mentioned this, but in response to:

[quote]But what gets me in that in supporting the war in defince of the Church's teachings they rejected the teaching authority of the Church, and in doing so fully rejected the Church and Christ.

Than, this is the part that brothers me most, some go and get upset at about someone else rejecting the Church after they themselves have rejected her. [/quote]

The Church has not "taught" that the war in Iraq is unjust. There is no such Church teaching. The Pope has not infallibly proclaimed that the war in Iraq is unjust. The Pope is not "the Church". In fact the USCCB is not "the Church" either. Both the Pope and the USCCB combined aren't "The Church". On the war in Iraq, the Church has taught nothing.

War in general has to do with faith and morals. Yes. And so there are infallible teachings for war in general. But one cannot objectivly say that the war in Iraq is unjust. This cannot be proclaimed infallibly. You can infallibly say that lustful sex within marriage is a sin. But can you infallibly proclaim a certain couple to have sinned? No!

The Pope has his opinion on things. And we can either go with him or not. Yes, he is a very very smart person. And I would much rather have him think for me too! But his "thoughts" are not infallible. He potentially could (even the smalles chance) be wrong. We are not bound to think as the Pope thinks. We are bound to the Church teachings, not the Popes personal teachings.

I just wanted to clear that up.

It isn't a sin to vote for Bush based on his involvment in a war (one which may or may not be unjust - who knows). It is a sin to vote for someone who publically supports abortion. The public suport of a war is different. War is not objectivly sinful. Abortion is.

A Catholic is not a cafeteria Catholic who votes for Bush and believes the war to be just. There is not Teaching on the war in Iraq.

Just wanted to clarify that point.

God bless you all.

[Paladin D]

[quote name='voiciblanche' date='Jun 10 2004, 03:10 AM'] Yeah. We went way off with this war. We have NO support. It's one thing when a couple countries here and there disagree with you. That is inevitable. But the UN to disagree with you as a whole and to have no support whatsoever? [/quote]
We do have support, almost 2/3 of Europe supported the war (including Poland). The whiners usually yell the loudest, thus giving them more of the attention.

But to clarify my position on the war, I agree with some of it's decisions, and disagree with others. Thus, I'm practically nuetral or 50/50.

[Iacobus]

[quote name='Paladin D' date='Jun 10 2004, 04:19 PM'] We do have support, almost 2/3 of Europe supported the war (including Poland). The whiners usually yell the loudest, thus giving them more of the attention.

But to clarify my position on the war, I agree with some of it's decisions, and disagree with others. Thus, I'm practically nuetral or 50/50. [/quote]
Yes Pal. We have 1000 Polish troops. They are unwilling to commit more out of fear of the mess. We have the UK's goverement. The war with the people is very unpopular. Spain pulled out becuase the war was that unpopular and they said that was when they were going to pull out. We have the UK and Poland's goverments approval. Thats it. That is not 66%.

[Iacobus]

[quote]The Church has not "taught" that the war in Iraq is unjust. There is no such Church teaching. The Pope has not infallibly proclaimed that the war in Iraq is unjust. The Pope is not "the Church". In fact the USCCB is not "the Church" either. Both the Pope and the USCCB combined aren't "The Church". On the war in Iraq, the Church has taught nothing.[/quote]

No the magisterium hasn't. But they have taught just war doctrines. And have SAID the war in Iraq, before and during, was immoral and unjust. The Pope has said the war was immoral. He didn't infallible proclaim it. But the Pope has also not infallible proclaimed that abortion is wrong either. All he has proclaimed is the IC and Mary is Queen of heaven. But abortion is still very wrong without needing an infallible declared doctrine.

The Church doesn't have a teaching on every abortion. They have one teaching to cover all abortions and that is that abortion is wrong and evil.

The Church doesn't have a teaching on every war. They have one teaching of just war to cover all wars.

So in saying that the Church doesn't have an infallible teaching on Iraq I am not bound to anything is simalr to saying the Church doesn't have an infallibe teaching on abortion, therefore I am not bound to respect it.

[quote]War in general has to do with faith and morals. Yes. And so there are infallible teachings for war in general. But one cannot objectivly say that the war in Iraq is unjust. This cannot be proclaimed infallibly. You can infallibly say that lustful sex within marriage is a sin. But can you infallibly proclaim a certain couple to have sinned? No!

The Pope has his opinion on things. And we can either go with him or not. Yes, he is a very very smart person. And I would much rather have him think for me too! But his "thoughts" are not infallible. He potentially could (even the smalles chance) be wrong. We are not bound to think as the Pope thinks. We are bound to the Church teachings, not the Popes personal teachings.[/quote]

There are two infallible doctrines. Both of which deal with Mary. No on war or sex or anything else. See my above points.

We don't need an infallible doctrine on this one case. We need the Churchs views on it, which though they are not infallible we are, as Catholics, obliged to obey and adhere to. If the Chruch says Iraq was unjust, than we are required to obey that decsions. It is not 100% infallible but is needed to be treated as such until an other pope retracts it or changes it.

To back that up I call upon [i]Lumen Gentium[/i] Paragraph 25.

[quote]This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will. His mind and will in the matter may be known either from the character of the documents, from his frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or from his manner of speaking.[/quote]

As to if it is a sin or not to vote for Bush. If he readly engaged in and started an unjust war, than it is.

[littleflower+JMJ]

[quote name='Jake Huether' date='Jun 10 2004, 03:16 PM'] I don't know if any one has mentioned this, but in response to:



The Church has not "taught" that the war in Iraq is unjust.  There is no such Church teaching.  The Pope has not infallibly proclaimed that the war in Iraq is unjust.  The Pope is not "the Church".  In fact the USCCB is not "the Church" either.  Both the Pope and the USCCB combined aren't "The Church".  On the war in Iraq, the Church has taught nothing.

War in general has to do with faith and morals.  Yes.  And so there are infallible teachings for war in general.  But one cannot objectivly say that the war in Iraq is unjust.  This cannot be proclaimed infallibly.  You can infallibly say that lustful sex within marriage is a sin.  But can you infallibly proclaim a certain couple to have sinned? No!

The Pope has his opinion on things.  And we can either go with him or not.  Yes, he is a very very smart person.  And I would much rather have him think for me too!  But his "thoughts" are not infallible. He potentially could (even the smalles chance) be wrong.  We are not bound to think as the Pope thinks.  We are bound to the Church teachings, not the Popes personal teachings.

I just wanted to clear that up.

It isn't a sin to vote for Bush based on his involvment in a war (one which may or may not be unjust - who knows).  It is a sin to vote for someone who publically supports abortion.  The public suport of a war is different.  War is not objectivly sinful.  Abortion is.

A Catholic is not a cafeteria Catholic who votes for Bush and believes the war to be just.  There is not Teaching on the war in Iraq.

Just wanted to clarify that point.

God bless you all. [/quote]

true...

[phatcatholic]

this has proved to be an excellent exchange on just wary doctrine and catholic social issues (in my humble opinion)

as such, i find it fitting to immortalize it in some way. so, i'm providing a link to it in the reference section.

thanks guys and keep up the good work,
phatcatholic

[Jake Huether]

[quote]No the magisterium hasn't. But they have taught just war doctrines. And have SAID the war in Iraq, before and during, was immoral and unjust. [/quote]


It doesn't matter if they say the war in Iraq is immoral. That's an opinion. The Church cannot Teach that a specific war is unjust. They can only outline what makes a war unjust. And they have. But one cannot know for sure whether or not the Iraq war is or isn't. Sure, we can error on the safe side and say it is immoral. But that is not a fallible statement.

The magisterium has taught that certain things make a war unjust. And it can assume, with current info, that the war in Iraq is immoral or whatever. But it falls short as an assumption, because unless the Holy Spirit inspires the Pope to declare it unjust from the seat of Rome it is just an assumption (good though it may be).


[quote]The Pope has said the war was immoral. He didn't infallible proclaim it. But the Pope has also not infallible proclaimed that abortion is wrong either. [/quote]

It doesn't need to be proclaimed infallible by the Pope. The universal Magisterium, through it's Teachings has stated that abortion is wrong. It is murder. God proclaimed abortion wrong on Mt. Sini. War has always been subjective. War itself isn't a sin. Abortion by itself is a sin. Abortion = murder. Murder is one of the 10 commandments. It doesn't need to be infallibly proclaimed. But the Pope must proclaim a specific war immoral for it to be considered infallibly immoral.


Again, war itself is not a sin. Murder is, therefore abortion is.

[quote]All he has proclaimed is the IC and Mary is Queen of heaven. But abortion is still very wrong without needing an infallible declared doctrine. [/quote]


It would be good for us all to understand infallibility. Murder is infallibly wrong. Abortion is therefore wrong. War is not. Unjust or immoral war is. But there remains to be seen anyone who can declair a war infallibly immoral without knowing ALL the details.


[quote]
The Church doesn't have a teaching on every abortion. They have one teaching to cover all abortions and that is that abortion is wrong and evil. [/quote]


Exactly! Murder is one of the Ten Commandments. Abortion is murder. EVERY abortion is WRONG. Don't matter how you dice it.

War on the other hand is different.

You can't compare the two. It's like birth control and NFP. Birth control is intrinsically evil. NFP is not. NFP can be used immorally. But the Pope cannot declare one couple's NFP usage immoral without knowing the details.


[quote]The Church doesn't have a teaching on every war. They have one teaching of just war to cover all wars.[/quote]

Exactly! I agree. But where is the Teaching that states that "Thou shalt not commit the Iraq war". There is no specific Church teaching on the Iraq war. We can only speculate as to it's immoralness, depending on the info we have!


[quote]
So in saying that the Church doesn't have an infallible teaching on Iraq I am not bound to anything is simalr to saying the Church doesn't have an infallibe teaching on abortion, therefore I am not bound to respect it.[/quote]

You are talking apples and oranges. There is no evidence that the war in Iraq is undeniably immoral. We only have the Popes opinion, not a declaration. We are bound to be against abortion, because we are bound by the 10 commandments. But we are not bound to a "teaching" on Iraq, because there is none. If one thinks the war in Iraq is immoral and still supports it, then that is wrong. If the Church infallibly declairs the war in Iraq immoral, then it is wrong. But we only have a Church Teaching against immoral war, but no declaration as to which war that is.



[quote]There are two infallible doctrines. Both of which deal with Mary. No on war or sex or anything else. See my above points.[/quote]


We need to learn what infallible means. Abortion is infallibly an immoral act. Immoral war is infallibly wrong. But the Iraq war is not infallibly immoral, so we are not bound to be against it.


[quote]
We don't need an infallible doctrine on this one case. We need the Churchs views on it, which though they are not infallible we are, as Catholics, obliged to obey and adhere to. [/quote]

As Catholics we do not need to adhere to the Popes opionion. The Popes opinion isn't even the "Churches" opinion. The Pope, like Al said, is simply Karol W. with his opinion on the war. The Church has no opinion on the war in Iraq.



[quote]If the Chruch says Iraq was unjust, than we are required to obey that decsions. [/quote]

Fortunatly for us, the Church hasn't said anything. Only the Pope has.


[quote]
It is not 100% infallible but is needed to be treated as such until an other pope retracts it or changes it.[/quote]

This is not the same thing. There is a difference between the Church suggesting us to do something, and the Pope (as Karol W.) suggesting it.

The Church has not publicly told Catholics to reject the war (or has she?). The Church, not the Pope. We need to, and are obliged to, know the difference.



[quote]As to if it is a sin or not to vote for Bush. If he readly engaged in and started an unjust war, than it is.[/quote]

We would have to know 1.) the disposition of Bush's soul (whether he intentionally started an unjust war, or whether he thought it was just) and 2.) whether the war is indeed unjust - which we don't. But with abortion, it is different. Abortion is murder. We cannot support anyone who would support murder.

[voiciblanche]

I don't think it's worthwhile to fight over whether or not voting for Bush would be a sin on the subject of war - voting for him is a sin because of his stances on other things. He's not exactly a stauch pro-lifer.