Not Really Catholic

[superblue]

the phish label is used for some members here, and some find that those catholics who are in the democrat party which suports abortions and other things against the faith to not really be helping the faith,,,, and all points in between in catholics who might not measure up to the bar, though i really do not know too many who do....

 

my question is though, what is it worth to be Catholic if one doesn't really believe ? To go through the motions but question everything, to vote or support issues like abortion and other things that go against the faith, yet still practice the faith..... to be a young child who doesn't understand any of it, and even in adolence mocks the faith or merely views the faith as a myth...

 

or to just be so hopeless on life in general that the only thing that keeps one going is that one hopes what the Church is and God is, is real, and that there will be something better waiting on the otherside even though one is not sure.....

 

 

How does the Church and Christ still value whatever all this is ?

[Luigi]

I don't think God expects perfection in us. We need to work for continual improvement, but we'll never achieve perfection.

 

None of us is born knowing everything there is to know about the faith - and at what point should/do we know all of our duties as Catholics? If you say, "By the time you get out of high school," I can agree with that, assuming you've had good instruction in the faith and that you grew up in a family that practiced the faith.

 

But we're also all on a journey. So if I don't really understand some aspect of the faith - say the benefits of the sacrament of penance - but I keep going to church - "going through the motions" as you call it - it's entirely possible that, at some point after I've graduated high school, something will happen that makes me understand the benefits of the sacrament of penance. At that point, I've become a better Catholic, but I'm still not a perfect Catholic.

 

Would it be better if every single, solitary Catholic fully understood and practiced every single, solitary tenet of their faith every single, solitary day from high school graduation to natural death? I'm sure it would be. But I don't think that's the way it works.

 

It didn't even work that way for whole lots of people the Catholic Church now recognizes as saints.

[truthfinder]

I don't think God expects perfection in us. 

 

It didn't even work that way for whole lots of people the Catholic Church now recognizes as saints.

Matthew 5:48 and Luke 6: 40 would seem to contradict your first sentence.  However, I would agree with your reasoning that it takes work to become holy.  

[dairygirl4u2c]

i could see associating more formally with the catholic church. if i did, though, it would be as someone who'd be criticized for 'why even be catholic' according to the standards in this thread. the reason for me is more historical, though, than for most who are just culturally catholic. i question infallibility. i see merit to the orthodox church arguments here. but, rome still has a basis in authority, and even they viewed rome as a first among equals. now they view the catholic church as heretical and i think constantinople as first among equals. but, i just view the catholic church as having moved into probable error. it still has enough basis in it to be followed and have authority, and even be deferred to, whether or not 'heretical', that's for the academics to argue about.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

It's hard to believe without a real experience of gods immense love. Hopefully i would say to someone in doubt to ask god to provide that real experience of his love in whatever way he sees fit even to ask for a sign if there in serious doubt.

And on the whole does the holy roman catholic church really contain the fullness of truth than i guess one has to search for that in the sacraments and official writings of the church which can take a long time and i agree with luigi about how you can kind of not believe and continue to practice the faith to the best of your knowledge and understanding and the amount you can handle and suddenly through that honor one day it can all come together and click and you find that real experience of christs love, which is what where kind of looking for deep down inside, that perfect unconditional love that magnifies all those good things in us like courage, patience, temperance, hope etc. 

 

Hope that helps.

 

Jesus " seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened."

 

GodblesS

 

P.s. for all who read any of my last 20 posts i am sorry for them, i haven't re read them but i was drunk and lonely last night and acted the goat more than likely, haven't re read them, but on the up it was the onloy time i had drunk in 6 months, for anyone who doesn't know i'm trying to quit alcohol, with a lot of success the last 18 months but not absolute victory which i do hope for.

Edited September 28, 2014 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye

[LouisvilleFan]

my question is though, what is it worth to be Catholic if one doesn't really believe ? To go through the motions but question everything, to vote or support issues like abortion and other things that go against the faith, yet still practice the faith..... to be a young child who doesn't understand any of it, and even in adolence mocks the faith or merely views the faith as a myth...

 

or to just be so hopeless on life in general that the only thing that keeps one going is that one hopes what the Church is and God is, is real, and that there will be something better waiting on the otherside even though one is not sure.....

 

 

How does the Church and Christ still value whatever all this is ?

 

Answers in the order of thy inquiries:

 

A better education for the kids (compared to big city public schools) and universities drool over a good GPA from St. X.

 

Forget hope. One of the Catholic high schools is bound to win state.

 

I reckon it's about $10,000 per year, after the discount you earn for turning in those tithing envelopes two Sundays out of every month. 

 

 

Besides, when you're descended from generations of Catholics, you're practically ordained into it. No sense in stopping now, unless you care enough to be an atheist or actually start following Christ (i.e. head over to the local non-denominational community most of your Christian friends attend). 

 

You don't really think most of the people at Mass are in it to be Catholic, do you? :) 

[NIKA]

Whether or not they are at mass for soci-economic benefit is unimportant. It is strictly the business of the individuals in question. They attend mass, that is important.

[superblue]

well what are people to do, who feel like they do not belong in the Catholic Church,   or leme try to rephrase it , sometimes people try too hard to be something they are not;

 

so can that happen with in  the faith,  some people are in a sense shopping around for a good fit, right or wrong,  and then  ya get new comers in to the Church who all of a sudden find out they are in a horrible parish, all kinds of things in between.... so what happens if someone figures yes they believe in the Gospel, the Sacraments, all the good stuff, and then instead of just being a Sunday Catholic, show up, jibber jabber before and through out mass, participate when he or she feels like it and in the end doesn't get anything out of it through their obvious own faults n limits, or the other end around, is a person who believes, but still just doesnt feel any connection with in the parish, nor feels like anything is gained by going to mass..  what good is that ?

 

What good is it to Christ and the Church, to be totally disconnected yet still have some faith and belief, but no longer appreciate being and participating at mass.

 

Is that any worse than enjoying being at mass for the mere socializing before mass and being with your family and carrying on a tradition but not really engaging in the mass or paying attention to the homily, and then rushing out after mass to be the first one out of the parking lot ?

 

are either scenerios of people in the faith, still worth something to Christ and the Church or would it better off if they didnt even show up.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

I don't like the personalities of most of my bretheren, but i love them anyway. I too feel uncomfortable with other people, but love the holy mass, the holy sacraments, the holy bible and sacred tradition( though i don't know much about sacred tradition, i love what i know an accept any i'm told on the basis of the magesterium of the holy catholic church.) That makes it very hard for me because i do believe to have a full experience of the holy spirit in truth,mercy and justice you need a communal relationship with God also(and not just functions) and not just a personal one or even soley a marital one. But this uncomfortablility with my assumptions of the modern church that it realies to much on the personal relationship with jesus doesn't make me act out at holy mass or any church functions, though i do some amount of fidgeting at holy mass and go out for a lot of cigerretes at events.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

In the name of christ we need to hang out and chill with Jesus ( wherever any two or more are gathered in my name i shall be there) and not just to watch a movie or listen to the top 40, hollywood has absolutely nothing, none, nada nathan to do with Jesus Christ, faith and morals. And it doesn't matter how much you know because the idea is to grow in all truth, and you can't grow if somone ain't watering yah. No doubt. Seems to me to be some snobbery amongst the under 40s though in my dioscease, they don't reach out to the black and grey sheep, if indeed there holy white, or there so ashamed of being a black or grey sheep that they isolate whether alone, with a chosen few or only wife and children, which is sad to me, very sad, because the holy trinity is a community as should we be.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

I think perhaps there is a great fear in the modern church, the fear of being a chummy commoner, the fear of being a bar instead of a star. Without the undergrowth the great trees can not grow, there is only a desert of nothing in particular, though it is true there is life in the desert, thing is you have to dig deep for water. Keep digging brow till you hit a spring.

 

I don't think there not catholic, i think perhaps they are riddled with fear and confusion and acting out is actually reaching out.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye

[Filumena]

Answers in the order of thy inquiries:

A better education for the kids (compared to big city public schools) and universities drool over a good GPA from St. X.

Forget hope. One of the Catholic high schools is bound to win state.

I reckon it's about $10,000 per year, after the discount you earn for turning in those tithing envelopes two Sundays out of every month.


Besides, when you're descended from generations of Catholics, you're practically ordained into it. No sense in stopping now, unless you care enough to be an atheist or actually start following Christ (i.e. head over to the local non-denominational community most of your Christian friends attend).

You don't really think most of the people at Mass are in it to be Catholic, do you? :)

Ah Louisvillefan, you have exposed my secret inner prejudice towards some of my fellow Catholics. I look at them and it makes me think "They are not like me and I am not like them!" and I feel disconnected from them which is a bad bad thing. There was a jolly priest once who joked at the end of mass about how we'd all rather be home watching the big game and this made me very angry. I go to mass because I want to be there not out of a sense of obligation. I would never say to someone who visited me, "I know you would rather be somewhere else." Gah! drives me crazy.

[LouisvilleFan]

well what are people to do, who feel like they do not belong in the Catholic Church,   or leme try to rephrase it , sometimes people try too hard to be something they are not;

 

so can that happen with in  the faith,  some people are in a sense shopping around for a good fit, right or wrong,  and then  ya get new comers in to the Church who all of a sudden find out they are in a horrible parish, all kinds of things in between.... so what happens if someone figures yes they believe in the Gospel, the Sacraments, all the good stuff, and then instead of just being a Sunday Catholic, show up, jibber jabber before and through out mass, participate when he or she feels like it and in the end doesn't get anything out of it through their obvious own faults n limits, or the other end around, is a person who believes, but still just doesnt feel any connection with in the parish, nor feels like anything is gained by going to mass..  what good is that ?

 

What good is it to Christ and the Church, to be totally disconnected yet still have some faith and belief, but no longer appreciate being and participating at mass.

 

Is that any worse than enjoying being at mass for the mere socializing before mass and being with your family and carrying on a tradition but not really engaging in the mass or paying attention to the homily, and then rushing out after mass to be the first one out of the parking lot ?

 

are either scenerios of people in the faith, still worth something to Christ and the Church or would it better off if they didnt even show up.

 

Every person is worth something to Christ -- and what they are worth is displayed before us at Mass on the Cross.

 

Whether one "type" of Mass-attender is better or worse is the wrong question. Both need conversion. It could be they are in a parish that isn't nurturing their spiritual growth. They might also look for ministries where they can give to the parish and/or local community. Or it could be a matter of changing their inner spiritual life, which has a way of making one's surroundings take on a whole new color.

[LouisvilleFan]

Ah Louisvillefan, you have exposed my secret inner prejudice towards some of my fellow Catholics. I look at them and it makes me think "They are not like me and I am not like them!" and I feel disconnected from them which is a bad bad thing. There was a jolly priest once who joked at the end of mass about how we'd all rather be home watching the big game and this made me very angry. I go to mass because I want to be there not out of a sense of obligation. I would never say to someone who visited me, "I know you would rather be somewhere else." Gah! drives me crazy.

 

I only intended to expose my own not-so-secret prejudice ;)  I hope you weren't subjected to the Joke + Three Sentences on the Gospel homiletic formula. That's usually more common with older priests, who apparently weren't taught didditty squat about how to preach. In the Louisville Rite of Mass, the benediction includes an optional update on the score.

 

It would be amesome if said priest took that a step further by drawing a lesson from the daily sacrifices we make out of love for someone greater. Maybe they've been too worn down by the blunt realities of typical parish life.

Edited October 15, 2014 by LouisvilleFan

[Benedictus]

the phish label is used for some members here, and some find that those catholics who are in the democrat party which suports abortions and other things against the faith to not really be helping the faith,,,, and all points in between in catholics who might not measure up to the bar, though i really do not know too many who do....

 

 People are inclined towards sin and division. People want to feel value, worth and assurance they have 'made it'. One way of doing that is by looking down on people who disagree with us or live a different way. Attempting to create groups that have strict compliance, processes, views and so on meets this need. People look to the sins and faults of others before their own faults, by and large anyway. The 'other' is usually always seen as less worthy in some way. The individual person may admit that they are also sinful. However, this is often followed by the view that they at least 'try' to be better, or more faithful, people. So they are still saying they are better. It's sort of a dressed up attempt at humility.

 

 

my question is though, what is it worth to be Catholic if one doesn't really believe ? To go through the motions but question everything, to vote or support issues like abortion and other things that go against the faith, yet still practice the faith..... to be a young child who doesn't understand any of it, and even in adolence mocks the faith or merely views the faith as a myth..

It depends what they believe and reject. I doubt many people simply 'go through the motions'. In most cases the person may not, at least in their view, reject things which shake or compromise what they believe to be Catholic. Alternatively they may think their own beliefs are at odds with the church, but they still come because they believe or identify with Chrstian beliefs in the general sense.  We each may do similar things for a different host of reasons. This isn't something people or the church, as an organisation, can really control. People come and go as they will. People generally identify in ways which are fitting for them, not others. It probably drives some idealists or purists nuts, but it's reality. I think most people, and the local church, are largely pragmatic. The church is for sinners, not saints.
 

 

or to just be so hopeless on life in general that the only thing that keeps one going is that one hopes what the Church is and God is, is real, and that there will be something better waiting on the otherside even though one is not sure.....
 

Well it could be argued it is the most dogmatic person who relies on this assertion, not a luke warm adherent.  It has been asserted many times, by Marxists, Feminists, Race activists and others that religious beliefs are often used to keep negative practices or regimes going and to pacify the people not to demand justice in this lifetime, as the poor and weak are told not to rebel but to focus on the 'next life'.
 

 

How does the Church and Christ still value whatever all this is ?

I don't think the issues you've highlighted are new. I'm sure the church, and more importantly God, will work it out in the grand scheme of things.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Benedictus