pippo buono Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 Definitions of sanctifying grace often include both "The free gift of God's own life" as well as "That which makes us capable of receiving God's own life." Among the more classical thought, it is sanctifying grace that allows for the inhabitation of the Trinity in us. But many contemporary theologians base the notion of sanctifying grace on the very presence of the Holy Spirit (and through Him the other Persons of the Trinity). So is it sanctifying grace that capacitates us for the inhabitation of the Trinity, or does the presence of the Trinity in us give rise to sanctifying grace? In the simplest terms, which comes "first": sanctifying grace or the inhabitation of the Trinity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seven77 Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbTherese Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 I think that undoubtedly a person who may have lost Sanctifying Grace through mortal sin, can be prompted by The Holy Spirit to fully repent (Actual Grace) and after a good Confession, Sanctifying Grace is returned to the soul which is returned to its state prior to mortal sin. I tend to think that therefore, The Holy Spirit's prompting (Actual Grace) comes first and then Sanctifying Grace and with that in an immediate or intrinsic sense, the Indwelling of The Blessed Trinity and the potential for the Beatific Vision after death. Mind you, Actual Grace can be offered, the person needs take it up however. Mine would be a very simplistic way of thinking however, being nothing of a theologian nor apologist. And it is far too complex a subject for me to research ........ at prayer and bedtime........and probably if I had stacks of time as well. :) There does seem to be plenty of Catholic resource sites available if one wants to research the subject in depth. http://www.rosary-center.org/ll46n2.htm "One who is a non-believer and without sanctifying grace, can do nothing of himself to receive that divine gift. Of his own natural powers alone he can do nothing to prepare his soul for grace. God must take the initiative by means of actual grace which precedes the act of the will on the part of man. “No one can come to Me,†said our Divine Savior, “unless the Father . . . draw him.†(Jn. 6:44) With the help of that initial grace, however, man can prepare himself to receive sanctifying grace. As Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange explains, that initial grace “first enlightens the intellect, then touches the will and causes a sudden desire for the object proposed through the representation of the intellect, and this is the inspiration that ‘opens the heart’ as the heart of Lydia was opened to attend to the things said by St. Paul.†(Acts 16:14) For the sinner who has lost sanctifying grace through mortal sin, a similar situation exists. By his own natural powers alone he can do nothing to bridge the infinite gap between the natural and the supernatural. He cannot even turn to God in prayer unless he first is moved by actual grace to recognize his sorry state of existence, and to desire to return to friendship with God. “No one can say ‘Jesus is Lord,’ except in the Holy Spirit.†(1 Cor. 12:3) But here again God takes the initiative and prepares the way with actual grace. “I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.“ (Lk. 5:32) Even the hardened sinner will not be denied the necessary actual graces to return to God. Whether or not he cooperates with those graces is another matter. The return of the sinner can involve a series of actual graces — which can be accepted or rejected. For example, God enlightens the mind of the sinner so that he sees the evil of what he has done. That first grace is a free gift of God. The sinner did not seek it. He can accept that first grace or reject it. He can admit to himself that he has done wrong, or he can justify his conduct and ignore the grace received. In this series of actual graces, one begets another. If he accepts the first grace, further graces will not be wanting . . . graces strengthening the will . . . moving to repentance, etc. Each step of the way back is preceded by and aided by an actual grace." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippo buono Posted September 25, 2014 Author Share Posted September 25, 2014 Thanks for responding, BarbaraTherese. The problem I see with a rigid understanding and division of grace is that it tends to make it appear as something separate or distinct from the Holy Spirit. For example, if sanctifying grace is the free gift of God's own life, we implicitly recognize that God is the source of that life. Any gift of life from God implies a participation in His Being. Understood in this way, it seems that a certain inhabitation/indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the prerequisite for sanctifying grace to take place. This is what certain more modern theologians (such as Karl Rahner) would say. That being said, the more mainstream Latin tradition tends to speak of sanctifying grace being the first "movement". I think we can recognize that they take place simultaneously. That being said, as it is with the Trinity itself, theology seeks to distinguish their order in nature. This is what I want to understand better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbTherese Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 As I said, PB, I think in very simple terms. We know that no good can exist apart from God and that in Him "we live and move and have our being" - yet somehow this is not the Indwelling of The Blessed Trinity in a soul which can only come about through Sanctifying Grace which is in fact an intimate relationship with God of friendship - it is not only God's Total Love of a soul in mortal sin or not, it is God's Love of a soul returned by Love of Him in some manner. Since no good can exist apart from God, the inspiration and desire of a person to reconcile with God while in the state of mortal sin and therefore separated from God, must come about through God acting in the soul through Actual Grace while yet being separate from Him through mortal sin. In my simple thinking, it has to remain mystery and God is mystery, the Ultimate Mystery, unless God can act on a soul while yet being separated from it in intimate two way friendship and Love - and since God can do all things - this would be the simple answer for myself. In a quick look through Google last night, it did seem to me that there is much research available if you do want to dig deeper and come to a clearer understanding. If your question can be resolved apart from theological 'bickering', I doubt but could be very wrong. I can't contribute much, I feel, but I might be able to keep your thread alive until you get more learned members contributing - in hope. Transmundane often does not have much activity. I do think you might get more interesting activity with a thread on your subject in either Open Mic or the Debate Forum. You could put in a thread and link it to this thread, although simply repeating your opening post would suffice I think. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippo buono Posted September 26, 2014 Author Share Posted September 26, 2014 No worries, BT. I've been thinking and praying a ton about this, and I think I've found a way to explain this. We have to recognize that sanctifying grace and the divine inhabitation/indwelling take place simultaneously in terms of time. That being said, we can make a distinction between the "movements" of these two in terms of nature. Being that I have siblings that are adopted, the most useful key that I have to explain these distinctions is through the hermeneutic of adoption. I'm also trying to formulate an answer in simple terms, and this is what I came up with. Plain text: analogy of human adoption. Italic text: becoming adopted sons of God. 1. We went to visit the boys so that we could get to know each other. 1. The Holy Spirit is sent to us and reveals to us who God is. 2. My parents offered the possibility of them being taken into our family as sons. 2. The gift of sanctifying/deifying grace is offered to us, which makes us participants of the divine nature. 3. We all freely gave our consent to this new relationship. 3. We freely accept this gift. 4. The state, identity and relationship of these boys with my parents was changed. They now have their identity as sons of my parents and members of our family. The inherent that which is of the family. 4. The gift takes effect. The deepest aspects of our humanity is transformed and remade according to the new humanity in Jesus Christ. This new humanity is capable of God’s own life in the Holy Spirit. We inherent that which is God’s. 5. After becoming sons, we all begin to live together. 5. As participants of the new humanity in Jesus Christ, we are also in Christ. As sons in the Son, consequently, we are simultaneously placed in communion with the other divine persons. Feel free to critique. I'll keep in mind your advice for future posts. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbTherese Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 (edited) I can't critique, PB. I am simply not of a theological nor an apologist turn of mind other than my explanation in Post #5, which is simply how I would explain it for myself. I think too much, too deeply for the likes of me, and I get quite literally very watery eyes and a headache! :blush: As Neil Diamond I think it was once wrote "It aint my call and it aint my vocation". I was hoping more informed members would come into the thread, but as I said, Transmundane is not often a very active forum and good to keep it in mind indeed for any future threads. Certainly, our very intelligent and well informed and educated Phatmass members can be often quite active in Open Mic and certainly in the Debate Forum. I was indeed very happy to read that you can now explain your initial problem for yourself and to your satisfaction. Adoption did strike me as very probably a good analogy incidentally. God bless...........Barb :) ___________ I do tend to think that where one Member of The Blessed Trinity is present, mysteriously all are present. Hope I am not being a heretic and if I am, please cancel out my comments. Edited September 26, 2014 by BarbaraTherese Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippo buono Posted September 26, 2014 Author Share Posted September 26, 2014 I do tend to think that where one Member of The Blessed Trinity is present, mysteriously all are present. Hope I am not being a heretic and if I am, please cancel out my comments. I don't think there's anything more correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbTherese Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 Thank you for that...........phewwww! :) Most often I try to check things out by researching if something occurs to me and I wonder where on earth I had got it from - just to ensure I am not the heretic. With "One Person present, All are Present" I didn't check it out and wanted to post before I lost that jolly short window to edit on Phatmass !!! I looked up something else for myself. Grace is GIFT of God according to Catholic Culture Catholic Dictionary. Hence, it seems to me that Grace and the Gift of God comes first and is His Free and Undeserved Gift to man - and then with the Gift of Sanctifying Grace, the Indwelling of The Blessed Trinity and the Beatific Vision in Heaven after death. ............ I think! :) As much as my eyes are watering and a dull thud in my head, it is an interesting topic indeed. http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=33791 In biblical language the condescension or benevolence (Greek charis) shown by God toward the human race; it is also the unmerited gift proceeding from this benevolent disposition. Grace, therefore, is a totally gratuitous gift on which man has absolutely no claim. Where on occasion the Scriptures speak of grace as pleasing charm or thanks for favors received, this is a derived and not primary use of the term. As the Church has come to explain the meaning of grace, it refers to something more than the gifts of nature, such as creation or the blessings of bodily health. Grace is the supernatural gift that God, of his free benevolence, bestows on rational creatures for their eternal salvation. The gifts of grace are essentially supernatural. They surpass the being, powers, and claims of created nature, namely sanctifying grace, the infused virtues, the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and actual grace. They are the indispensable means necessary to reach the beatific vision. In a secondary sense, grace also includes such blessings as the miraculous gifts of prophecy or healing, or the preternatural gifts of freedom from concupiscence. The essence of grace, properly so called, is its gratuity, since no creature has a right to the beatific vision, and its finality or purpose is to lead one to eternal life. (Etym. Latin gratia, favor; a gift freely given.) " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippo buono Posted September 26, 2014 Author Share Posted September 26, 2014 I was thinking about that. It has helped me to reflect on what a gift is in relation to God. For example, God is the giver of life, and the life He gives is a participation of His own life. However, the life we are born with, though it comes from God, isn't identical to God's own life. This distinguishes between God's own self (uncreated grace) and the gifts or effects that are consequence of Himself (created grace). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbTherese Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 (edited) I think of it as the difference between a gift of something (natural life) which is the gift of an object - and the gift of oneself and one's own life (Sanctifying Grace and supernatural life (above nature) the Indwelling of The Blessed Trinity and potential for The Beatific Vision). It is truly a most amazing and mind boggling matter that in Christ with Sanctifying Grace we are drawn into the very life of The Blessed Trinity. I do not claim any of my thoughts on this subject as Church Teaching, though my hope is that I do not go against it and if I did, then I would change my thinking pronto. :) Edited September 26, 2014 by BarbaraTherese Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippo buono Posted September 27, 2014 Author Share Posted September 27, 2014 See, that's where it gets confusing. You put sanctifying grace in the category of God's own Self (uncreated grace), which is understandable because it is the gift of God's own life. However, from what I've researched, sanctifying grace is a form of created grace, which is a a gift or an effect of the gift of God's self. It think it has to do with the participation in God's own nature. When we participate in God's divine nature, we possess an imperfect expression of a perfection in God. The quality in us as participated depends upon God's own perfection, but it's not the same thing. An example from God's angle: We have natural life. This life depends on God, as we participate in God's existence. But the existence we have isn't God's own existence. Otherwise, we would be identical to God, which we simply aren't. An example from our own experience: We can offer the gift of friendship to another. It's a spiritual gift. It implies the gift of myself to a degree. If I were to stop being, so would my friendship. Still, I am not identical to the friendship. There is a distinction between the nature of a friendship and myself, although the friendship is entirely dependent upon me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbTherese Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 Sanctifying Grace Catholic Culture Dictionary http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=36272 "The supernatural state of being infused by God, which permanently inheres in the soul. It is a vital principle of the supernatural life, as the rational soul is the vital principle of a human being's natural life. It is not a substance but a real quality that becomes part of the soul substance. Although commonly associated with the possession of the virtue of charity, sanctifuing grace is yet distinct from this virtue. Charity, rather, belongs to the will, whereas sanctifying grace belongs to the whole soul, mind, will, and affections. It is called sanctifying grace because it makes holy those who possess the gift by giving them a participation in the divine life. It is zo_ (life), which Christ taught that he has in common with the Father and which those who are in the state of grace share. " I must confess that I am getting lost in any technicalities! Undoubtedly from the above, Sanctifying Grace is a sharing in Christ with the Life of The Trinity, it seems to me and hence subject to correction if necessary. Thus, it seems to me only, Supernatural Grace is the gift of God of Himself or perhaps better, the gift of God of sharing in His Trinitarian Life which seems to me pretty much the same thing worded differently. I am truly on eggshells and out of any comfort zone for absolutely sure. The subjective experience of Sanctifying Grace while on earth, will be fulfilled in the Beatific Vision in Heaven (that is, experienced differently on earth to the experience in Heaven - mystical experiences are probably another matter again) I think it is much more than God offering His Friendship and the offer being accepted. It is actually a drawing in to the Life of God Himself through Christ. Because I am on eggshells, I am seeking out reliable Catholic sources that seem to underscore what I am thinking - rather than enter into any 'discussions' between differing theological schools of thought. FR J A Hardon "History & Theology of Grace: Sanctifying Grace" http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/Grace/Grace_011.htm By His infinite goodness and in a way that “eye has not seen nor ear heard, nor has it entered into the heart of man,†God has made possible a participation in this divine life by His rational creatures, to be had in faith and hope on earth and through sight and possession in heaven. As defined by Benedict XII, the angels and blessed in heaven “see the divine essence with an intuitive and even face-to-face vision, without the interposition of any creature in the function of object seen; rather the divine essence manifests itself to them plainly, clearly, openly.†[52] The possession of sanctifying grace on earth is on the same level of reality as the vision of God in heaven; objectively the same participated divine life is had by the soul in grace as by the souls in glory. Only the subjective effects are different, although even these tend to merge in the mystical experiences of some of the saints, where something approximating the beatific vision may be enjoyed even before eternity. A person in the state of grace, therefore, is already living the deiform life that elevates him to the divine family, and has only to wait until heaven to enter its glorious fruition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbTherese Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 Just to go back to your opening post and question you posed: " In the simplest terms, which comes "first": sanctifying grace or the inhabitation of the Trinity? " To go to a Fr JA Hardon source again (Catholic Culture dictionary) http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=34180 "The immediate effect of the divine indwelling is sanctifying grace, which is the created result of the uncreated grace of God's presence. Its effect on the person is an experience that spiritual writers compare to a foretaste of the beatific vision; the mind is able to understand something of the mystery of God and the will is enamored of his goodness beyond anything possible by the light of reason or the natural affective powers of humans." It seems that the Uncreated Grace of God's Presence brings about the Created Grace of Sanctifying Grace............which just might cancel out some of what I said in my previous post - I don't have time to read back and memory is poor. Unlearned as I am, it seems to me that it is not something that takes place in our time understanding or as one event and then another, but more or less an "at once" event, which seems to be borne out by the opening words above "The immediate effect" or one and the same time as we know it? It is Saturday late afternoon here in Adelaide South Australia, and I need to prepare to go to Saturday Vigil Mass and am home later in the evening after Mass. Don't know if I will have time tonight to come back to this thread and do some reading and research........it is interesting as simple minded and unlearned as I am. :) And I am of the real hope that any mistakes I made can be pardoned because of the latter!!! :) I am like a little fish swimming in strange and murky water seeking home water that is clear and familiar !!! .............. Is all that a disclaimer? ............. ......probably! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tab'le De'Bah-Rye Posted September 28, 2014 Share Posted September 28, 2014 (edited) Barb, Heretic has to be a deliberate movement against the teaching authority of the church and/or the primacy of the pope. Not aomoeone whom is just having a go with grace whether actual grace or the other grace. lol. :P Perhaps god has two hands ladies and can use both, sometimes one first sometimes the other, and perhaps even sometimes both at the same time. :) Edited September 28, 2014 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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