Is There A Crisis In The Church?

[PhuturePriest]

Vote and discuss.

Edited September 7, 2014 by The Phetus

[veritasluxmea]

There's always a crisis of faith in the Church, especially after counsels. 

[PhuturePriest]

There's always a crisis of faith in the Church, especially after counsels. 

 

Wrong. There is a crisis in the Church *before* a council, and that's the entire purpose of them. The Council of Trent wouldn't have happened if the Reformation didn't happen.

 

And just because a council has happened that does not excuse widespread lack of fidelity and reverence, unless, of course, you don't think these things are the case. Do you think there is a crisis, or do you think these are simple aftershocks of a council?

Edited September 7, 2014 by The Phetus

[veritasluxmea]

Wrong. There is a crisis in the Church *before* a council, and that's the entire purpose of them. The Council of Trent wouldn't have happened if the Reformation didn't happen.

There's a crisis before, there's a crisis after, and then there's still a crisis... there's always a crisis. If it's not one thing it's another. 

 

 

And just because a council has happened that does not excuse widespread lack of fidelity and reverence, unless, of course, you don't think these things are the case. Do you think there is a crisis, or do you think these are simple aftershocks of a council?

Of course the council doesn't excuse it. It also didn't cause it. I think it's both a crisis and aftershocks. 

 

I'm optimistic that the Church, the culture, the world actually might perk up for a bit, but of course it will then dive down and eventually stay down until the second coming. 

 

Edited September 7, 2014 by veritasluxmea

[PhuturePriest]

 

There's a crisis before, there's a crisis after, and then there's still a crisis... there's always a crisis. If it's not one thing it's another. 

 

Of course the council doesn't excuse it. It also didn't cause it. I think it's both a crisis and aftershocks. 

 

I'm optimistic that the Church, the culture, the world actually might perk up for a bit, but of course it will then dive down and eventually stay down until the second coming. 

 

 

I'm not asking about the culture or the world, I'm asking if you think a majority of Catholics are truly reverent and have full fidelity to Church teaching. I haven't said anything about councils.

[Ash Wednesday]

[PhuturePriest]

 

 

[OriginalSin]

I am the crisis. 

 

Grace overcomes me. But the funny thing about that, is you have to let grace work in you. And people like to be in control.

 

 

 

Moral of the story -- it's not all about you. Let God.

 

 

Meh.

[veritasluxmea]

I'm not asking about the culture or the world, I'm asking if you think a majority of Catholics are truly reverent and have full fidelity to Church teaching. I haven't said anything about councils.

Then no. But periods of time where a majority of Catholic were reverent and had full fidelity and all that were fleeting, if ever complete. Yes, there is a crisis, there is always some kind of crisis. 

Edited September 7, 2014 by veritasluxmea

[PhuturePriest]

Then no. But periods of time where a majority of Catholic were reverent and had full fidelity and all that were fleeting, if ever complete. Yes, there is a crisis, there is always some kind of crisis. 

 

"No", as in you don't think there's a crisis concerning fidelity and reverence, or "No" as in yes? I'm not meaning to seem as if I'm going after you, I was just confused by the wording.

[PhuturePriest]

Then no. But periods of time where a majority of Catholic were reverent and had full fidelity and all that were fleeting, if ever complete. Yes, there is a crisis, there is always some kind of crisis. 

 

Sorry, just saw the edit.

[PhuturePriest]

Then no. But periods of time where a majority of Catholic were reverent and had full fidelity and all that were fleeting, if ever complete. Yes, there is a crisis, there is always some kind of crisis. 

 

I disagree with your assertion that there is always a crisis. Are there always problems of at least some minor type? Of course. But there isn't always a *crisis*, per se. 25% of Catholics not going to Mass every week is a problem; 75% of Catholics not going to Mass every week is a crisis. 10% of Catholic women using contraception is a problem; 90% of Catholic women using contraception is a crisis.

 

See what I'm getting at?

[Nihil Obstat]

Athanasius Schneider:


Q. What is this crisis you mention?

BAS: ‘This is a broader crisis than the reception of the Blessed Sacrament. I think this issue of the reception of Holy Communion by the remarried will blow up and show the real crisis in the Church. The real crisis of the Church is anthropocentrism, forgetting the Christocentrism. Indeed, this is the deepest evil, when man or the clergy are putting themselves in the centre when they are celebrating liturgy and when they are changing the revealed truth of God, e.g. concerning the Sixth Commandment and human sexuality.

‘The crisis reveals itself also in the manner in which the Eucharistic Lord is treated. The Eucharist is at the heart of the Church. When the heart is weak, the whole body is weak. So when the practice around the Eucharist is weak, then the heart and the life of the Church is weak. And when people have no more supernatural vision of God in the Eucharist then they will start the worship of man, and then also doctrine will change to the desire of man.

‘This crisis is when we place ourselves, including the priests, at the centre and when God is put in the corner and this is happening also materially. The Blessed Sacrament is sometimes in a cupboard away from the centre and the chair of the priest is in the centre. We have already been in this situation for 40 or 50 years and there is the real danger that God and his Commandments and laws will be put on the side and the human natural desiring in the centre. There is causal connection between the Eucharistic and the doctrinal crisis.

‘Our first duty as human beings is to adore God, not us, but Him. Unfortunately, the liturgical practice of the last 40 years has been very anthropocentric.

'Participating in liturgy is firstly not about doing things but praying and worshipping, to love God with all your soul. This is true participation, to be united with God in your soul. Exterior participation is not essential.

‘The crisis is really this: we have not put Christ or God at the centre. And Christ is God incarnated. Our problem today is that we put away the incarnation. We have eclipsed it. If God remains in my mind only as an idea, this is Gnostic. In other religions e.g. Jews, Muslims, God is not incarnated. For them, God is in the book, but He is not concrete. Only in Christianity, and really in the Catholic Church, is the incarnation fully realised and this has to be stressed therefore also in every point of the liturgy. God is here and really present. So every detail has meaning.

‘We are living in an un-Christian society, in a new paganism. The temptation today for the clergy is to adapt to the new world to the new paganism, to be collaborationists. We are in a similar situation to the first centuries, when the majority of the society was pagan, and Christianity was discriminated against.’


Q. Can you see a split coming in the Church?

BAS: ‘Unfortunately, for some decades some clergy have accepted these ideas of the world. Now however they are following them publicly. When these things continue, I think, there will be an interior split in the Church of those who are faithful to the faith of their baptism and of the integrity of the Catholic faith. There will be a split with those who are assuming the spirit of this world and there will be a clear split, I think. One can imagine that Catholics, who remain faithful to the unchangeable Catholic truth may, for a time, be persecuted or discriminated even on behalf of those who has power in the exterior structures of the Church? But the gates of the hell, i.e. of the heresy, will not prevail against the Church and the Supreme Magisterium will surely issue an unequivocal doctrinal statement, rejecting any collaboration with the neo-pagan ideas of changing e.g. the Sixth Commandment of God, the meaning of sexuality and of family. Then some 'liberals', and many collaborators with the spirit of this world, many modern “thurificati et traditores” will leave the Church. Because the Divine truth will unresistingly bring the clarification, will set us free, and will separate in the midst of the Church the sons of the Divine light and the sons of the of the pseudo-light of this pagan and anti-Christian world. I can presume that such a separation will affect each level of the Catholics: lay people and even not excluding the high clergy. Those clergy who accept today the spirit of the pagan world on morality and family declare themselves Catholics and even faithful to the Pope. They even declare extremists those who are faithful to the Catholic faith or those who are promoting the glory of Christ in the liturgy.’



http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2014/06/bishop-athanasius-schneider-in-england.html

[Seven77]

There is a real crisis of face.

[Ash Wednesday]

Absolutely there is a crisis, I voted yes to all of the above. We live in very unusual times.

 

That said -- the story has a good ending. In the meantime I think the faithful are enduring something of a foxhole existence in the midst of spiritual warfare and have to toe the line between indifference and despair.