The Proceeding Of The Holy Spirit...

[pippo buono]

I need help understanding how Thomas Aquinas explains how the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. I understand as well as one can how the Son, the Word, proceeds from God's perfect understanding of Himself. It's harder for me to understand how this occurs with the Holy Spirit from the both of them as a movement of the will in love. All details and clarifications possible would be greatly appreciated.

[pippo buono]

Uh oh... Still nothing from anyone...

 

Is there someone as theologically nerdy as me out there who studies this stuff?

[BarbTherese]

I need help understanding how Thomas Aquinas explains how the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. I understand as well as one can how the Son, the Word, proceeds from God's perfect understanding of Himself. It's harder for me to understand how this occurs with the Holy Spirit from the both of them as a movement of the will in love. All details and clarifications possible would be greatly appreciated.

 

Might get a response if you gave a link (if available) to the quotation or quotations from Thomas Aquinas that apply. :)

Mine is a quite lowly and quite simple I suspect college understanding from Dominican nuns - that The Father Loves The Son and The Son Loves The Father and that the Love between them is The Holy Spirit.  Hope I said it right - very long time indeed since I was in college i.e. some 53 years or more.

 

I hope more members will reply for you!

[pippo buono]

Might get a response if you gave a link (if available) to the quotation or quotations from Thomas Aquinas that apply. 

 

Fair enough. Here are some citations from Thomas Aquinas's Compendium of Theology, also known as the Shorter Summa:

 

45 God in Himself as beloved in lover

As the object known is in the knower to the extent that it is known, so the beloved must be in the lover, as loved. The lover is, in some way, moved by the beloved with a certain interior impulse.

Therefore, since a mover is in contact with the object moved, the beloved must be intrinsic to the lover. But God, just as he understands Himself, must likewise love Himself; for good, as apprehended, is in itself lovable. Consequently God isin Himself as beloved in lover.

 

46 Love in God as Spirit

Sin the object known is in the knower and the beloved is in the lover, the different ways of existing in something must be considered in the two cases before us. The act of understanding takes place by a certain assimilation of the knower the object known; and so the object known must be in the knower in the sense that a likeness of it is present in him.

But the act of loving takes place through a sort of impulse engendered in the lover by the beloved: the beloved draws the lover to himself. Accordingly, the act of loving reaches its perfection not in a likeness of the beloved (in the way that the act of understanding reaches perfection in a likeness of the object understood); rather the act of loving reaches its perfection in a drawing of the lover to the beloved in person.

The transferring of the likeness of the original is effected by univocal generation whereby, among living beings, the better is called father, and the begotten is called son. Among such beings, moreover, the first motion occurs conformably to the species. Therefore, as within the Godhead the way whereby God is in God as the known in the knower, is expressed by what we call Son, who is the Word of God, so the way by which God is in God as the beloved is in the lover is brought out by acknowledging in God a Spirit, who is the love of God. And so, according to the rule of the Catholic Faith, we are directed to believe in the Spirit.

[BarbTherese]

Sorry, BP,  it is beyond my scope of knowledge and understanding for sure.   I do hope other members more gifted might respond to you.

[Catherine Therese]

Hmmmm.

 

I actually think the way Thomas has described it is about as clear as is possible. If I might direct you to reading up on "Perichoresis" which is a word that refers to the interrelating between the Persons of the Blessed Trinity, a sort of Trinitarian dance, if you will. St Bernard of Clairvaux offers some insights, too. If you read what you've cited above from Thomas alongside an understanding of this term Perichoresis, it might help you take in the Thomistic stuff with a clearer understanding. 

 

I think one thing where it is easy to trip up is the notion of proceeding carrying with it a chronological reality, that suggests that whilst the Father and the Son were together at the beginning, the Holy Spirit, in proceeding from them both, is in some way pre-dated by the Father and the Son. This problem is side-stepped by the realisation that the notion of proceeding from the Father and the Son is an ONTOLOGICAL reality, not a chronological reality, which is what Thomas is getting at in his description of the Knower, the Known and the Knowing/the Lover, the Beloved and the Love, etc. 

Does that help at all?

[superblue]

What is the point in knowing this ?

[pippo buono]

If I might direct you to reading up on "Perichoresis" which is a word that refers to the interrelating between the Persons of the Blessed Trinity, a sort of Trinitarian dance, if you will. St Bernard of Clairvaux offers some insights, too. If you read what you've cited above from Thomas alongside an understanding of this term Perichoresis, it might help you take in the Thomistic stuff with a clearer understanding. 

 

[..]

Does that help at all?

 

I'll look that up. Thank you for the suggestion.

[pippo buono]

What is the point in knowing this ?

 

First and foremost, because I want to understand.

Second, because I'll be teaching it.

[superblue]

First and foremost, because I want to understand.

Second, because I'll be teaching it.

I am not knocking anyone wanting to educate themselves or others on anything, I am more curious as how does this benefit someone knowing this.

[Nihil Obstat]

Contemplation of God is the highest use of human intellect.

[superblue]

Contemplation of God is the highest use of human intellect.

 

 

I don't find it worth the headache. Contemplate on how God came into existence an leme know if ya don't get a migraine and why.

 

Or I like to contemplate why God couldn't stop Satan and the fallen angels during that first conflict in Heaven, or did He just choose not to stop Satan.

 

Sometimes I like to contemplate the butterfly effect... But in the end, contemplate all ya want, if you can not put it to good use for others then what is the use in having that intellect.

[Nihil Obstat]

I don't find it worth the headache. Contemplate on how God came into existence an leme know if ya don't get a migraine and why.

 

Or I like to contemplate why God couldn't stop Satan and the fallen angels during that first conflict in Heaven, or did He just choose not to stop Satan.

 

Sometimes I like to contemplate the butterfly effect... But in the end, contemplate all ya want, if you can not put it to good use for others then what is the use in having that intellect.

Good question. What is the purpose of intellect? What is the highest calling of humanity? What is our telos?

[pippo buono]

When you love someone, you want to know more about them and what they do. Practicality isn't necessarily the motive, but rather the person himself.

 

That being said, I would like to remind you both of the original question. If you'd like to discuss the value of knowing such things, perhaps the Debate Table would be more fitting.

[pippo buono]

Well, I didn't get as much help here as I expected... All the same, I think I arrived at a simple (though nonetheless extended) way of explaining this concept. It's not the simplest, as it assumes some foundation in these categories. For anyone who is interested, I'll put it on here.

 

Basic premises:

• God is simple. He is one and has no parts.
• God is omniscient. He is all-knowing.
• God's essence is His existence. We mere mortals only have existence, but this existence doesn't form an essential part of who we are. We can stop existing. For God, on the other hand, His existence is essential to who He is. His existence enters into His essence, that which defines Him. In other words, God necessarily exists.
• God is good. There is nothing evil, ugly or undesirable in Him.
• God is love.

The proceeding of the Son from the Father (in brief)

God, who is all-knowing, knows Himself perfectly and without defect. Since God doesn't have any parts (like a brain or a mind to store it in), this knowledge enters into His one Being. And being that God's Being is existence, this knowledge exists as a Person who is the Image (or the Word, in Aquinas's terms) of God.

 

The proceeding of the Holy Spirit from the Father and the Son

Being that God is good and God is love, God naturally loves this Image He has of Himself. This image is perfectly desireable, as it has no flaw.

 

When we love somebody, the one who is loved leaves an impression on the lover. But this impression of love is different from the impression made by the knowledge we have of something.

Ej. The impression my best friend leaves on me in the knowledge I have of him is distinct from the impression of love I have from him.

In terms of knowledge: I remember his physical features, his tone of voice, his habits, his way of thinking, his likes and dislikes, etc.

In terms of love: The good and admirable in him is something I want for myself. This is true as much in friendship, which involves having his person close to me, as it is in the imitation of these desirable characteristics. I would like this goodness to be as close to me as possible, and I miss it when it isn't present.

 

The impression of self-knowledge in God is associated with the Word, the Son. The impression of self-love in God is associated with the Holy Spirit because, again, God does not have parts and His essence is His existence.

 

And being that these two impressions are based on the same person, God Himself, they are consubstantial in their essence. There is no differentiation in their essence, but rather in their relation.

 

Now this impression is made possible by two factors: 

1. The knowledge the lover has of the person who is loved. We can't be attracted to the good in the other if we don't know what that good is. This knowledge must be founded accurately upon the person loved.
2. The capacity to love that the lover possesses. 

When talking about the Trinity, the Image (the Son) is the knowledge that is loved, and the Father is love. For this reason, the Holy Spirit proceeds both from the Father and the Son.

 

My students said they found it understandable, but I was able to speak about it more and respond to questions. I hope it helps you.