Thoughts On College And Tuition?

[Winchester]

Stop subsidizing college. Credit expansion distorts prices.

 

 

Learn to weld. 

[PhuturePriest]

Stop subsidizing college. Credit expansion distorts prices.

 

 

Learn to weld. 

 

There's a welding school near me.

[God the Father]

I paid quite a bit for my undergrad, a business degree, and got a wonderful job that I could only get with a degree and I've helped people and made a difference in many lives.  I will done paying my undergrad off in a few months.  Yes, its been tough at times but I do not regret it one ion.

 

My masters will be free...and its technically less valuable than my bachelors.  But having my bachelors got me a free Masters.

 

Some debit is ok when it comes down to it.  Manageable debt.  Debt that is relative to income and to the people issuing the degree.  I paid more because I went to a private Catholic college, but I am better for it and I'd never trade the years of sacrifice I've had to make financially for what you deal with at other schools....which sound like the schools Crosscut is familiar with.  My profs were dynamic, out-of-the-box and engaging, my class sizes were small, ethics mattered and morals triumphed, Daily Mass was offered and even though its not one of the Catholics top 25 Catholic schools it was a great place.  There was diversity among students and different view points.

 

Some things are worth debt.  And hard work (I did work study and paid quite a bit each term)

 

Congrats on wiping out your UG loans; I graduated from the top 1 Catholic school and I'll have my UG paid off in 10 years

 

As a Finance major I'm familiar with the concept of productive debt. If the borrower can use that capital infusion to produce a positive present-value return, incurring the debt is wise.

 

I don't know your age, but for the average student enrolling in Fall '14, college does not provide that return. Refer to the below chart, with source underneath

 

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-05-18/net-worth-college-grads-student-debt-20-less-high-school-grads-no-debt

 

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-05-17/what-san-fran-fed-did-not-tell-you-about-student-debt

 

The data comes from Pew Research.

[CatherineM]

I graduated with my first bachelors owing $400 and my law degree $10,000. At times I had three jobs as an undergrad. I couldn't do that in law school because we were told that "the study if law is a full time endeavour." If you were caught working, you could get in trouble.

The biggest difference is that I paid $17/hour undergrad, and $36/hour law school. I paid $30 for my second bachelors and am paying over $200 for my Masters. My JCL is liable to be a gazillion an hour.

[blazeingstar]

Congrats on wiping out your UG loans; I graduated from the top 1 Catholic school and I'll have my UG paid off in 10 years

 

As a Finance major I'm familiar with the concept of productive debt. If the borrower can use that capital infusion to produce a positive present-value return, incurring the debt is wise.

 

I don't know your age, but for the average student enrolling in Fall '14, college does not provide that return. Refer to the below chart, with source underneath

 

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-05-18/net-worth-college-grads-student-debt-20-less-high-school-grads-no-debt

 

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-05-17/what-san-fran-fed-did-not-tell-you-about-student-debt

 

The data comes from Pew Research.

 

 

Thats just dollars, however.  My "net worth" from college cannot be measured in dollars, and even if I end up poorer in monetary means than a non-college educated peer, I will always have an education more valuable than anything but the most gifted didactic could produce.

 

I played chess and learned strategic management from a prof who studied chess under Kasropov.   I learned economics from a professor who was a prime minister in an african nation and is now the chief economist in another growing nation.  That personal connection, interaction, it will never be replaced by a library or a computer.  My business law professor wrote some of the most pivitoal statements on corporate responsibility in regards to clean water thats affecting thousands of court cases decades later.   I was in a club lead by a conductor who had worked with some of the most famous symphonies and orchestras in the world.  I also knew priests who sacrificed everything for foreign missions.  And it could never be truly understood in a direct dollar comparison.  Some were adjunct and continued to work at what they did.  Some were full time and had published papers.  All were amazing.  Even the cranky little accounting professor who gave the same lecture he had in 1905...I'm pretty sure he was about 130 years old.  (ok so that's a bit factious, he was 96 and had been lecturing since he was 26. point being, he wasn't much to change, and his lectures in the 2000's had "modern" jokes from the 80's.)

 

Perhaps my college experience was tremendously different than other people's.  But thats where being smart comes in.  I didn't just go anywhere, I went where I knew I'd get value.

 

I studied under those people.  I because of their words, and through their eyes, I traveled with them to Africa and Australia, to rural depths of Asia and to the very spot near my feet that was protected and saved because of their work.

 

So not only did I learn from them, I learned how to be a critical thinker, I learned different perspectives and I watched how they interacted.  Could I have had that devoted, dedicated, unadulterated, face-to-face time of learning without college?  Perhaps, but it's doubtful.

 

Is that worth $2,000?  Absolutely.

Edited August 28, 2014 by blazeingstar

[Lilllabettt]

There are many good "practical" reasons to go to college.

You are less likely to ever be divorced, or be a single parent, or be arrested, or declare bankruptcy. Live longer. Be healthier. Be Richer. You are more likely to get married, to someone else w/ a college degree, and then get all the socioeconomic benefits that come with that.

Statistically there's no better way to improve your odds of achieving a stable family and a happy healthy successful life... Its the ultimate preventive factor. 

The social benefits of educated girls vs. uneducated girls are such that I think its almost a patriotic duty for them to go to college if they can.

If you don't have the resources to go full time, then chip away at it. It took me 7 years to get my undergraduate degree. It doesn't matter how long it takes you - the benefits accrue as long as you graduate.

The question is not: "can I afford to go to college" its "can I afford to NOT go to college." 

 

Edited August 28, 2014 by Lilllabettt

[Anastasia13]

I found this: http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2014/02/11/the-rising-cost-of-not-going-to-college/

And this: http://www.pewresearch.org/2012/05/17/college-graduation-weighing-the-cost-and-the-payoff/

 

Now assuming a high school degree would earn 25K over four years, discounted at 2%, they would have a present value of $95,193.22 earned and a future value of this money of $186,643.06.

 

Assuming no income during college, the increased income from a degree of $17,500 a year, discounted at 2%, the increased earnings over 30 years following college would have a present value of $362,090.10 and a future value in 34 years from present at $709,941.39.

 

Present value difference: $266,896.89 in favor of college

Future value difference: $614,748.17 in favor of college

 

Other factors: college here is an average with different impacts on earnngs from different degrees and different experiences, connections, location, etc. during the course of college.

[Luigi]

I'm not convinced you entirely know what you're talking about here.

 

 

Call me crazy, but I'm okay with not having children taught by someone with very little (and let's face it, in today's world, a high school diploma is very little) education. However, if there are places that require a masters to teach primary or secondary school, I haven't heard of it, and certainly it's not the case everywhere.

 

 

In the past, a hacksaw and a bottle of bourbon were all that was required to be a surgeon. With the tremendous amount of knowledge that medical professionals have to have now, I think -- as with the above -- that the added education is a good thing. And certainly most individuals with their PhDs in nursing do not work as unit nurses in your community hospital. It, like any other PhD, is a research degree.

 

 

I'm not aware of any program that requires 60 hours of general education requirements. I went and looked at my diploma programs -- my BA required 39, and my BM only required 30. In a 120 hour degree, there's a big difference between 60 and 30 or 40 hours.

 

I'm okay with not having children taught by someone with very little education, too. And I'm aware of the history of medical training. And I'm aware of the history of legal training. And sorts of fields. My point is that, in the past, degrees were not needed for all sorts of work. Degrees ARE needed now, for all sorts of work. That's part of what has turned post-secondary education into the bustling industry it is today. 

 

The typical, traditional college bachelor's (BA) is sixty hours of general courses (freshman and sophomore years) plus sixty hours of specialized courses (junior and senior years). The first two years provide a broad foundation in a range of topics so that the college graduate knows "something about everything;" it also provides tastes of various fields for students who are unsure of what they want to major in.

 

so you take two years of general courses, declare your major at the end of sophomore year, and take two years of courses in your major.

 

Strange as it may seem to you, not all college is based on your experience. 

[God the Father]

Thats just dollars, however.  My "net worth" from college cannot be measured in dollars,

 

This is the argument college apologists always employ to respond to the data, which is where this discussion basically devolves to resemble an argument about the existence of God.

 

 

The fact is, an institution that markets itself as a socioeconomic upward path for students will not survive very long by fleecing those students, the majority of whom are rationally self-interested, in favor of an ever-expanding bloated administrative apparatus (to say nothing of tenured faculty earning six figures by virtue of claiming expert status in the most dubious of fields).

 

I think my original point stands--free college is a great deal, but when faced with the prospect of parting with 10 years' rent for a diploma, "cui bono" is a worthwhile question.

[CatherineM]

If you want free college tuition, there's always Norway or Sweden. I can't remember which, but one of them gives free college to anyone from anywhere.

[blazeingstar]

This is the argument college apologists always employ to respond to the data, which is where this discussion basically devolves to resemble an argument about the existence of God.

 

 

The fact is, an institution that markets itself as a socioeconomic upward path for students will not survive very long by fleecing those students, the majority of whom are rationally self-interested, in favor of an ever-expanding bloated administrative apparatus (to say nothing of tenured faculty earning six figures by virtue of claiming expert status in the most dubious of fields).

 

I think my original point stands--free college is a great deal, but when faced with the prospect of parting with 10 years' rent for a diploma, "cui bono" is a worthwhile question.

 

 

And that's the sour grapes response of someone who either didn't go to college or made foolish decisions and is now saddled with debt.

 

If you want trade school, go to trade school.  But realize you will still likely eventually want to delve into those subjects.  My mechanic went to trade school, got a automotive degree, started up a business with a friend.  He's one of the most respected and trusted mechanics in town, and for years told me he never regretted just going for 2 years as an 18yo. He hated that he had to go onto a "snooty" community college campus.  Then his daughter went to college and he had a chance to speak with her about her classes, and read the books.  He was fascinated and awestruck at the philosophy and ethics classes.  He keeps her business law textbook in the shop and has read the case studies to the other mechanics when it's slow.  He's going to go once he's done helping his 2 children pay for classes.

 

The "ever expanding bloated administrative apparatus" is there solely because students demand it.  As I said, there's now been several case studies where a campus improved a student workout gym, got wifi in dorms, re-did the caf and enrollments jumped, sometimes as high as 150%.    Students are not looking to avoid those costs, they just want it all for free.  If you really, really asked a college student "if I took away your air condition, wifi, high speed internet in your dorm, your gourmet chef dining hall, your athletic facility, access to an on campus nurse, campus security, campus counselors, etc." they wouldn't go to that college.  It's really that simple.  Colleges have closed over less...and it has nothing to do with the caliber of their degree.

So what would be a fair price for a faculty member who could earn twice as much in their profession but choose to teach or preside over college?  Some states publish the salaries of all public employees including college employees.  One community college president, wanting to travel less, went from a job that paid 600k a year to one that paid 210. 

 

Data supports long term financial benefits of college, just not short term ones.  Short term, it can benefit.

 

Students just need to do their research.

[OnlySunshine]

I don't have much time to read over this entire thread because I'm preparing for class tomorrow but I will say this much:

 

I am a full-time student at a low-cost 4-year state university.  The school is no great shakes but it has a killer Health Administration degree program and I'm loving all my classes, even if the professors can be kind of so-so.  I'm learning so much that I can apply to my future career as an Assisted Living Facility Administrator.  I could never learn all this stuff on my own through the internet because the teachers provide real-world examples that you can only learn through a regular class or an internship.  I don't pay an inordinate amount of money (most of it is through financial aid but I work now, too) but my education is invaluable.  You can't put a price tag on that!  ;)

[Poorly Catechized Convert]

The "ever expanding bloated administrative apparatus" is there solely because students demand it. As I said, there's now been several case studies where a campus improved a student workout gym, got wifi in dorms, re-did the caf and enrollments jumped, sometimes as high as 150%. Students are not looking to avoid those costs, they just want it all for free. If you really, really asked a college student "if I took away your air condition, wifi, high speed internet in your dorm, your gourmet chef dining hall, your athletic facility, access to an on campus nurse, campus security, campus counselors, etc." they wouldn't go to that college. It's really that simple. Colleges have closed over less...and it has nothing to do with the caliber of their degree.

From a current college student, this is spot on.

Also, I don't think students are being given enough credit when it comes to handling college. My high school constantly emphasized needing to get internships. Furthermore, the problem of debt was never hidden from me and I'm sure it wasn't for other students. I mad the decision that the risk was worth it -- such decisions are common throughout our lives so I have no idea why college appears to be treated differently. And I believe it will pay off. Not because I'm doing a practical major, but because I'm willing to work to make my major work for me. I'll figure something out and will talk to counselors about ways to improve my chances. I have no regrets about any decision I made and it is the same with everyone I know. Edited September 1, 2014 by Poorly Catechized Convert

[blazeingstar]

From a current college student, this is spot on.

Also, I don't think students are being given enough credit when it comes to handling college. My high school constantly emphasized needing to get internships. Furthermore, the problem of debt was never hidden from me and I'm sure it wasn't for other students. I mad the decision that the risk was worth it -- such decisions are common throughout our lives so I have no idea why college appears to be treated differently. And I believe it will pay off. Not because I'm doing a practical major, but because I'm willing to work to make my major work for me. I'll figure something out and will talk to counselors about ways to improve my chances. I have no regrets about any decision I made and it is the same with everyone I know.

 

Yep, and while some colleges have poor Career Development, many have excellent ones.  It's VERY expensive.  My friend works in the corporate world and he gets paid to review resumes for off-boarding employees of corporations.  A low-skill resume review of an part-time less than a year employee cost the company $80 while a high tier one could be as much as $500.  Students who have good Career Development get an insane value.  Job fairs, on most college campus' often cost a few thousand dollars to put on.