Thoughts On College And Tuition?

[Basilisa Marie]

I'm not campaigning against college -- I think college is a wonderful thing. Is it necessary? The answer is yes and no. The system views college as the height of educational pursuits -- which is both right and wrong. It is the height of all educational and intellectual pursuits for those who thrive in a college environment. But there are other people whose height of educational and intellectual pursuits is simply learning everything by themselves, and they're just as knowledgeable and qualified as people who went to college. The issue is, the system has been created to oppose such people and offer little to no opportunities to them. We've made education into one-size-fits-all, which it doesn't. One size has never fit all, and it never will, especially with something as important as education and intellectual pursuit.

 

But they're not just as qualified. They may be just as knowledgeable, but you have to learn some things from experts. When you get to the level of higher education, it's not simply passing on knowledge. You're teaching people how to understand and make judgments for themselves. It's nearly impossible for that to happen for someone on their own. College didn't change my life because I now know more about what heresies were a thing and when, that the Church split in 1054, or about Cardinal Dulles' six models of ecclesiology. It teaches you how scholars think, how to pull ideas together, and how to make my own judgments about what's good and what's bunk in my field. 

 

As far as what it means to be "qualified," it really comes down to what skills you're looking for. Does college make you a qualified adult who can support him or her own independent existence? Not really, unless it's taken together with other things. Does it teach you important skills that are relevant to adulthood that can be hard to find in other places? Sure. 

[John Ryan]

But this isn't about putting them opposed to each other. College vs. self-taught shouldn't be a war. Both are perfectly valid for the people who benefit most from them. The issue with the system is it's completely one-sided to those who go to college, and completely against those who are self-taught. Steve Irwin never went to college, but he was more knowledgeable and experienced with animals than most people with doctorates in biology and zoology. At the same time, there are many people with doctorates who are very knowledgeable and perfectly qualified to do what their degree claims they can do.

 

I am personally an advocate of college and self-teaching. I have a masters in political philosophy from NYU, but I am self-teaching myself theology and Catholicism. My college education has taught me to study Catholic theology on a higher level.

[Basilisa Marie]

There is much merit in being taught. But again, the system makes it to where if you weren't taught in a college, what you know isn't really worth anything. It's narrow-minded and stifles creativity in the job market.

 

And you can say the exact same thing for the opposite - if you don't already have experience in the field, you don't really know anything (despite your degree).  

 

"Creativity in the job market"? What does that even mean? 

[PhuturePriest]

And you can say the exact same thing for the opposite - if you don't already have experience in the field, you don't really know anything (despite your degree).  

 

"Creativity in the job market"? What does that even mean? 

 

If people who are perfectly qualified to do a job are not allowed to because they don't have a degree, they are not allowed to work, thus stifling the economy and exerting a sense of "There's only one way to really know something, and that's through college!", thus also stifling creativity in the job market.

[Basilisa Marie]

If people who are perfectly qualified to do a job are not allowed to because they don't have a degree, they are not allowed to work, thus stifling the economy and exerting a sense of "There's only one way to really know something, and that's through college!", thus also stifling creativity in the job market.

 

You're just repeating yourself. So I'll repeat myself too. 

 

You can say the exact same thing about people with degrees - they lack experience and don't get hired. Your point doesn't hold water because I can complain about lack of experience being just as prohibitive as not having a degree. It sucks for everyone!  

 

You still didn't tell me what "creativity in the job market" even means. 

[PhuturePriest]

You're just repeating yourself. So I'll repeat myself too. 

 

You can say the exact same thing about people with degrees - they lack experience and don't get hired. Your point doesn't hold water because I can complain about lack of experience being just as prohibitive as not having a degree. It smells of elderberries for everyone!  

 

You still didn't tell me what "creativity in the job market" even means. 

 

I did tell you what it meant, actually. If we have a one-size-fits-all system, that stifles creativity. It is literally the opposite of creativity. It's both uncreative and harmful to the economy as a whole, in fact.

[Vincent Vega]

Steve Irwin never went to college, but he was more knowledgeable and experienced with animals than most people with doctorates in biology and zoology. 

So how many people with PhDs in biology and zoology do you know? And of those, how many know less about animals than Irwin? And I don't mean how to pick up water moccasins and how to put on a show on television, I mean about the migration patterns of the pine beetle and how that impacts the alarming trends of wide-spread ailing health in pine forests across the country.

 

But there are other people whose height of educational and intellectual pursuits is simply learning everything by themselves, and they're just as knowledgeable and qualified as people who went to college. 

 

And there are people who share needles and do any manner of dangerous habits without contracting AIDS, because about 1% of caucasians are immune to it. However, I think you'd find that if you did those activities, you probably wouldn't be in the majority. 

 

 

It's both uncreative and harmful to the economy as a whole, in fact.

 

Do you have any foundation for this assessment, or is it conjecture?

[Basilisa Marie]

I did tell you what it meant, actually. If we have a one-size-fits-all system, that stifles creativity. It is literally the opposite of creativity. It's both uncreative and harmful to the economy as a whole, in fact.

 

You're ignoring my point that college grads have a hard time finding jobs too. It's a one size fits all system: it sucks for everyone, degree or none, experience or none.  The problem is the fact that employers are basically able to pick their ideal candidate from a huge pool of applicants, who has both experience and a degree, because there are more people than jobs. You go to a gas station in most states and you pump your own gas. You go to some states and it's illegal for you to pump your own gas, in order to provide jobs for gas station attendants. In other countries, one guy pumps your gas, one guy cleans your windows, another tops your fluids... and that's not even getting into the whole can of worms of how the minimum wage isn't a living wage.

 

The economy sucks and there is no magic formula for getting jobs. 

[PhuturePriest]

So how many people with PhDs in biology and zoology do you know? And of those, how many know less about animals than Irwin? And I don't mean how to pick up water moccasins and how to put on a show on television, I mean about the migration patterns of the pine beetle and how that impacts the alarming trends of wide-spread ailing health in pine forests across the country.

 

 

And there are people who share needles and do any manner of dangerous habits without contracting AIDS, because about 1% of caucasians are immune to it. However, I think you'd find that if you did those activities, you probably wouldn't be in the majority. 

 

 

 

Do you have any foundation for this assessment, or is it conjecture?

 

Since when has one-size-fits-all ever been a good idea, especially now with all the scientific evidence that proves most people do not learn the same way?

[blazeingstar]

I'm laughing at the comments regarding Steve Irwin and noting that people learn more from their parents in a trade as can be taught in school.

 

This makes the assumption that parents are always good teachers (false) that their offspring will learn in the manner in which they teach (false) that the child would want to learn from their parent (false) and that a parent's skill(s) would appeal to the child (false).

 

To go back to the days of apprenticeship would be crazy.  A few years of unpaid work before an apprenticeship that was 5-8 years long.  It was a tough life.

 

 

[PhuturePriest]

You're ignoring my point that college grads have a hard time finding jobs too. It's a one size fits all system: it smells of elderberries for everyone, degree or none, experience or none.  The problem is the fact that employers are basically able to pick their ideal candidate from a huge pool of applicants, who has both experience and a degree, because there are more people than jobs. You go to a gas station in most states and you pump your own gas. You go to some states and it's illegal for you to pump your own gas, in order to provide jobs for gas station attendants. In other countries, one guy pumps your gas, one guy cleans your windows, another tops your fluids... and that's not even getting into the whole can of worms of how the minimum wage isn't a living wage.

 

The economy smells of elderberries and there is no magic formula for getting jobs. 

 

I wasn't ignoring it, just busy. And it's a very valid point. I remember hearing a story of a young woman who was told to get a bachelor's degree, and that's all she would need to get a job in law. She got it, no jobs came in, and she was told to go and get a masters degree. She got it, no jobs came her way, and she was assured if she got a higher degree the jobs would be thrown at her. She got it, couldn't find any jobs, and had $400,000 in debt by the end. It's safe to say that our system is effed up no matter which route you take.

[PhuturePriest]

I'm laughing at the comments regarding Steve Irwin and noting that people learn more from their parents in a trade as can be taught in school.

 

This makes the assumption that parents are always good teachers (false) that their offspring will learn in the manner in which they teach (false) that the child would want to learn from their parent (false) and that a parent's skill(s) would appeal to the child (false).

 

To go back to the days of apprenticeship would be crazy.  A few years of unpaid work before an apprenticeship that was 5-8 years long.  It was a tough life.

 

People can be taught more from their parents. They can also be taught more in school. Not everyone is a good teacher, but that applies to certified teachers as well. However, let's not get into that subject today.

 

You realize there still is apprenticeship, right? I can go right now and be an apprentice electrician.

[Vincent Vega]

My question was more aimed at the fact that you claimed it was detrimental to the economy, which is a huge claim.

But I also don't think you really have any idea what you're talking about with your references to a one-size-fits-all system. The "college experience" can vary wildly between public/private, secular/religious, big/small schools. Even within my very large state university, there is a huge freedom within most of the colleges to tailor your educational plan to fit your future plans. I would imagine that most similar universities have comparable options. And that's just one of the of combinations that I mentioned above (Public/Secular, big). So, if this is not what you mean, what is it that you do mean?

[Basilisa Marie]

I wasn't ignoring it, just busy. And it's a very valid point. I remember hearing a story of a young woman who was told to get a bachelor's degree, and that's all she would need to get a job in law. She got it, no jobs came in, and she was told to go and get a masters degree. She got it, no jobs came her way, and she was assured if she got a higher degree the jobs would be thrown at her. She got it, couldn't find any jobs, and had $400,000 in debt by the end. It's safe to say that our system is effed up no matter which route you take.

 

Yes, exactly, which comes back to my original point, that no one is going to hand a job to you once you get out of college, even though that's what many of us were taught, so now we have to teach other people that you have to have a contingency plan for when you don't get your dream big salary job right away. It's wonderful to go to college, but you have to be smart about it. 

[blazeingstar]

Since when has one-size-fits-all ever been a good idea, especially now with all the scientific evidence that proves most people do not learn the same way?

 

So all colleges, all professors teach exactly the same?  Really?  Can you help me find that college?  I'd like to know.

 

You're making the assumption that every college, every learning environment set forth by them is virtually the same.  Even in my tiny college I was exposed to many, many different ways of learning from straight up rote lecture to a professor who taught us outside and climbed on desks and bounced from one to another.  I had a religion professor who taught much of Catholicism via Charleston Heston and a philosophy professor who used movies and his dog as examples.

 

I was also forced to deal with a couple instructors who would not teach to my learning style.  That in itself taught me alot, too.

 

My brother went to a 2 year school for forestry that is a arm of a large-well know private wealthy school where they had to chop wood as part of class credit and burnt forests.   My brother who went to school for music wrote a song where the accompaniment was entirely tracts of ripping duck tape. College isn't a stagnant lecture of 300 people.  If it is, you're doing it wrong.