Thoughts On College And Tuition?

[PhuturePriest]

What are your thoughts on college and the terrible--and rising--tuition that we have today? Are we reaching a breaking point where college is no longer practical? Where will the economy and work force go if most people stop going to college due to cost?

[Basilisa Marie]

I think some people are already looking at alternative options, whether they be limiting your options to state schools (or places that hand out very large scholarships), going to a community college for two years and then transferring, or even online degrees. Take Starbucks, they pay half your tuition the first two years and the whole thing the last two, you can major in anything you want but you take most of your classes online at Arizona State. 

College is still certainly practical and necessary for loads of people, I think it's more the way you look at how you get that education that is changing. When I was starting to think about college almost ten years ago, everyone was talking about how awesome a small, private, liberal arts education was and how that was the way to go. But those can be the most expensive, because small schools don't usually have the money to hand out big scholarships to everyone. Now it seems like the savvy thing to do is to stay in-state and go where you can take on minimal debt. 

 

Or just say to heck with it and take on all the debt, move back home after college, take a job outside your field to make your "20 (or 30) year plan" payments, and reevaluate the traditional markers of adulthood in our society and complain about how much we hate Boomers for messing up the economy. That's what lots of my fellow Millenials seem to be doing these days. :) 

[PhuturePriest]

I think some people are already looking at alternative options, whether they be limiting your options to state schools (or places that hand out very large scholarships), going to a community college for two years and then transferring, or even online degrees. Take Starbucks, they pay half your tuition the first two years and the whole thing the last two, you can major in anything you want but you take most of your classes online at Arizona State. 

College is still certainly practical and necessary for loads of people, I think it's more the way you look at how you get that education that is changing. When I was starting to think about college almost ten years ago, everyone was talking about how amesome a small, private, liberal arts education was and how that was the way to go. But those can be the most expensive, because small schools don't usually have the money to hand out big scholarships to everyone. Now it seems like the savvy thing to do is to stay in-state and go where you can take on minimal debt. 

 

Or just say to heck with it and take on all the debt, move back home after college, take a job outside your field to make your "20 (or 30) year plan" payments, and reevaluate the traditional markers of adulthood in our society and complain about how much we hate Boomers for messing up the economy. That's what lots of my fellow Millenials seem to be doing these days. :)

 

The issue with college that I see is the debt is getting so high that your options are 1), be a genius and get a free ride 2), take loans and try to pay off $100,000 of debt 3), go to a trade school. There are guys like Mike Rowe who are really pushing for trade schools and funding them because they're a lot cheaper and more practical. The issue is, a lot of people look down upon trade schools because they don't have the prestige of a liberal arts college.

 

Here's a very fascinating Mike Rowe interview on trade schools vs. liberal arts educations. The first one is a shortened version, and the other one is a lot more thorough.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls1YhhMHdNY

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzKzu86Agg0

 

Edited August 26, 2014 by The Phetus

[veritasluxmea]

Lucky me, the state completely covered my associate's and my employer is paying for my bachelor's degree. I want to get a master's though, so we'll see if I can work that out debt-free. Maybe join an order that will cover it LOL. Eh, an associates is good enough for some people I know and they get along fairly well. Yeah, they'll never be rich but they have a house and the basics covered and support their family.

 

Unfortunately you need a higher degree to enter the "middle class" but you have to go into debt to get there which drains a lot of your money. It's a tough situation. 

[Luigi]

1. A large part of the problem is people have champagne taste on a beer budget. 

 

The local community college's tuition rate is about $100 per credit hour. You can complete the first two years of gen eds for $6,000 plus fees & books. And you can do that while you're still living at home with your parents and still working your part-time job. If your folks don't charge you rent, and if you save your income, you'll have some money in your pocket when you go to the state college for your last two years, where you'll take the courses in your major. Tuition at the local state university is about $315 per credit hour, which comes to $18,900 for your last two years, plus fees and books. Grand total of $25,000 plus fees and books for a bachelor's degre. 

 

Compare that to any of the local private universities, which run closer to $30,000 per year = $120,000 plus fees and books for a bachelor's degree. Why pay five times more for the same degree? There are reasons to do it, but most of them aren't worth going into debt over. 

 

But a lot of people want to leave home at 18, live in the dorm, experience the freedom, live the party life, yada yada yada. And that's fine if your folks can afford it. But it's not worth going into debt just to live some teenage dream. 

 

 

2. The object is to get a degree that will help you find a job. I've heard lots of folks with doctorates say, "That's a trade school mentality. The purpose of college is to open one's mind to the vast array of human yada yada yada." 

 

Nonsense. College IS just a glorified trade school. People major in accounting so they can get a job. People major in medicine so they can get a job. People major in law so they can get a job. Education, forestry, agriculture, horticulture, social work, computer anything, business, journalism, engineering, audiology, speech therapy, the allied health fields,  - there are plenty of fields one can major in that will lead to employment and/or a career. 

 

If you choose a major that doesn't lead to employment, don't be surprised - and don't complain - if you have trouble finding employment. DUH! 

 

I'm fed up well past my ash with people who make poor choices of colleges and majors and then complain about their college debt. And I'm fed up well past my ash with the government types that validate their poor choices. 

[Slappo]

When you calculate the economic opportunity cost associated with going to college on a $100,000 4 year degree it gets extremely scary how much college costs.

[John Ryan]

I am still that old fashioned, traditional Platonist who believes that educational enlightenment should be pursued for its own sake. America's view of a liberal education as utilitarian to finding a job is saddening. 

[Vincent Vega]

I am still that old fashioned, traditional Platonist who believes that educational enlightenment should be pursued for its own sake. America's view of a liberal education as utilitarian to finding a job is saddening. 

I agree with that 100%. The purpose of education -- any education -- is to expand the mind and experience one's humanity more fully. It's too bad that some think that it should only be the means to create another degree-holding button-pusher. A thinker that has the ability to think about more things is an asset, whatever his discipline.

[Luigi]

I am still that old fashioned, traditional Platonist who believes that educational enlightenment should be pursued for its own sake. America's view of a liberal education as utilitarian to finding a job is saddening. 

 

And that's great, if your folks can afford it. 

 

College was, for centuries, a rich man's endeavor. Very few people went to college - only the upper crust. They could study philosophy or history or whatever they wanted, because they'd still have the family fortune when they graduated.

 

 It wasn't until post WWII and the GI bill that any real percentage of people went to college at all. In the Sixties, it turned into an industry. Also since the Sixties, we've seen a lot of "professionalization" in various fields.when my grandma taught grade school, she had a high school diploma and ' a way with children'. Now she'd need a master's degree. In the past, an RN was enough to to work as a nurse - it still is, but the field has added bachelor's, master's, and doctoral degrees. 

 

So most people who go to college these days don't have the guaranteed income to pick and choose majors like nineteenth century English gentlemen. Students have to complete the required credential to get the job they want. 

 

And they DO still get their minds expanded a good deal through the sixty hours of required gen eds. 

[Vincent Vega]

I'm not convinced you entirely know what you're talking about here.

 

when my grandma taught grade school, she had a high school diploma and ' a way with children'. Now she'd need a master's degree.

 

 

Call me crazy, but I'm okay with not having children taught by someone with very little (and let's face it, in today's world, a high school diploma is very little) education. However, if there are places that require a masters to teach primary or secondary school, I haven't heard of it, and certainly it's not the case everywhere.

 

In the past, an RN was enough to to work as a nurse - it still is, but the field has added bachelor's, master's, and doctoral degrees.

 

In the past, a hacksaw and a bottle of bourbon were all that was required to be a surgeon. With the tremendous amount of knowledge that medical professionals have to have now, I think -- as with the above -- that the added education is a good thing. And certainly most individuals with their PhDs in nursing do not work as unit nurses in your community hospital. It, like any other PhD, is a research degree.

 

And they DO still get their minds expanded a good deal through the sixty hours of required gen eds.

 

 

 

I'm not aware of any program that requires 60 hours of general education requirements. I went and looked at my diploma programs -- my BA required 39, and my BM only required 30. In a 120 hour degree, there's a big difference between 60 and 30 or 40 hours.

[Basilisa Marie]

I am still that old fashioned, traditional Platonist who believes that educational enlightenment should be pursued for its own sake. America's view of a liberal education as utilitarian to finding a job is saddening. 

 

Yeah, and you can do that with a library card and an internet connection.  Sure, there's absolutely no replacing a classroom setting, with a professor and being able to discuss with other students. 

 

But college and a liberal education can be and often are two very different things. Taking on a large amount of debt to get a job can be an okay move. It's irresponsible to take on a large amount of debt to get a liberal education. At the same time, it seems like there's an implication that a "liberal education" just can't happen at an inexpensive place, like a state school, or later on, like after military service. 

[PhuturePriest]

I am still that old fashioned, traditional Platonist who believes that educational enlightenment should be pursued for its own sake. America's view of a liberal education as utilitarian to finding a job is saddening. 

 

The idea of going to a university to expand the mind is outdated. Universities were created so people could come and educate themselves because there were no other places they could do that. Now there's nothing you can learn at Harvard that I can't Google with my phone. Going to a university for the sake of learning is outdated and too costly. When they lower tuition down to reasonable costs, then we can go to universities for the sake of learning. As it is, we need to justify the expenses of college by getting a job that pays for it. If you can't justify the expenses of college by getting a job that pays for it, then it's time to re-think your education plans.

Edited August 26, 2014 by The Phetus

[Slappo]

I am still that old fashioned, traditional Platonist who believes that educational enlightenment should be pursued for its own sake. America's view of a liberal education as utilitarian to finding a job is saddening. 

Educational enlightenment doesn't have to be pursued through liberal arts colleges. As a matter of fact, the idea that educational enlightenment requires a traditional liberal arts education is somewhat ironic.

 

The problem with an American college education that does not result in a job is that it instead results in poverty or very near to it. 

[Slappo]

I'm fed up well past my ash with people who make poor choices of colleges and majors and then complain about their college debt. And I'm fed up well past my ash with the government types that validate their poor choices. 

I'm much more fed up with the latter than the former. I moreso pity the former, because more often then not, they were ignorant.

 

What they learned in college is that college is damn expensive and they couldn't afford the liberal arts degree they picked that won't put food on the table. It is quite literally a very expensive lesson in life.

[PhuturePriest]

Yeah, and you can do that with a library card and an internet connection.  Sure, there's absolutely no replacing a classroom setting, with a professor and being able to discuss with other students. 

 

But college and a liberal education can be and often are two very different things. Taking on a large amount of debt to get a job can be an okay move. It's irresponsible to take on a large amount of debt to get a liberal education. At the same time, it seems like there's an implication that a "liberal education" just can't happen at an inexpensive place, like a state school, or later on, like after military service. 

 

Precisely. There's nothing you can learn at Harvard that I can't Google, so the idea of going to a university just to learn is outdated. When tuition doesn't cost more than a house in Beverly Hills, then we can go just for the sake of learning. But as it is, we have to justify tuition with a job that pays it. If you can't do that with the field you want to, then go into something else and do what you love to do on the side. The idea that you have to pursue your passions in your job and that you "have to love your job" have never been a thought that existed until quite recently, and it's very misguided.

Edited August 26, 2014 by The Phetus