How Would You Rather Die?

[dairygirl4u2c]

ty

[CatherineM]

When too cold, you basically go to sleep. When too hot, it hurts longer before you drop.

[Cherie]

When too cold, you basically go to sleep. When too hot, it hurts longer before you drop.

This.

[Credo in Deum]

Head shot. 

 

 

Edit: After Confession and Mass.  (edit inspired by CountrySteve21)

[CountrySteve21]

After MAss and Confession in Antarctica 

[PhuturePriest]

Cold without question. In heat, you're in agony until the last moment of your life. In hypothermia, you actually lose the sensation to feel and think it's warm, which is why many dying from hypothermia take off their coats.

[Credo in Deum]

Heat, to help expiate for my sins.  I've lived a horrible life. 

[superblue]

I would prefer to die in the most hilarious way possible,

 

or as soon as possible, I don't really enjoy the notion of living to be 40, heck I was pissed off to make it to 30, the articles I read of people living up to and past 100 make me sick, and I got a feeling if I do live that long it would be Gods' cute lil way of making a point just to yank my chain.

 

and Freezing or Burning, neither, those are the slowest possible ways to die other than death by a disease, virus or something else long an drawn out.

 

Though I guess between the two, Freezing would be preferable ,it seems that the body just simply turns off after a certain temperature , where as with fire or heat you are feeling all of it till the very end.

 

Though I have to say I disagree with heat being some kind of expiator for ones sins, how does one figure that, if that was the case I imagine humanity would have rationalized a reason to incorporate a heat or fire way to inflict upon ones self for atoning for ones sins as a just an fair punishment instead of going through Confession and Purgatory.

 

More over, where did people get the notion that Purgatory is some sort of mini version of hell with a lot of Fire ,

 

an ya ever notice, we have plenty of stories of the wonders of Heaven from people who had near death experiences or visions, and the same for Hell,  but no one has ever said wooo I had a near death experience and I saw purgatory, not to argue against purgatory, just saying how come no stories on purgatory out there ?

[Nihil Obstat]

 
Though I have to say I disagree with heat being some kind of expiator for ones sins, how does one figure that, if that was the case I imagine humanity would have rationalized a reason to incorporate a heat or fire way to inflict upon ones self for atoning for ones sins as a just an fair punishment instead of going through Confession and Purgatory.
 
More over, where did people get the notion that Purgatory is some sort of mini version of hell with a lot of Fire ,
 
an ya ever notice, we have plenty of stories of the wonders of Heaven from people who had near death experiences or visions, and the same for Hell,  but no one has ever said wooo I had a near death experience and I saw purgatory, not to argue against purgatory, just saying how come no stories on purgatory out there ?

The purification in purgatory is traditionally likened to purifying by fire. It is a pretty major part of theological exploration of the concept of Purgatory.

 

 

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm


New Testament

There are several passages in the New Testament that point to a process of purification after death. Thus, Jesus Christ declares (Matthew 12:32): "And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come." According to St. Isidore of Seville (Deord. creatur., c. xiv, n. 6) these words prove that in the next life "some sins will be forgiven and purged away by a certain purifying fire." St. Augustine also argues "that some sinners are not forgiven either in this world or in the next would not be truly said unless there were other [sinners] who, though not forgiven in this world, are forgiven in the world to come" (City of God XXI.24). The same interpretation is given by Gregory the Great (Dial., IV, xxxix); St. Bede (commentary on this text); St. Bernard (Sermo lxvi in Cantic., n. 11) and other eminent theological writers.

A further argument is supplied by St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15:

"For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay stubble: Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire."

While this passage presents considerable difficulty, it is regarded by many of the Fathers and theologians as evidence for the existence of an intermediate state in which the dross of lighter transgressions will be burnt away, and the soul thus purified will be saved. This, according to Bellarmine (De Purg., I, 5), is the interpretation commonly given by the Fathers and theologians; and he cites to this effect:

St. Ambrose (commentary on the text, and Sermo xx in Ps. cxvii),
St. Jerome, (Comm. in Amos, c. iv),
St. Augustine (Enarration on Psalm 37),
St. Gregory (Dial., IV, xxxix), and
Origen (Hom. vi in Exod.).
See also St. Thomas, "Contra Gentes,", IV, 91. For a discussion of the exegetical problem, see Atzberger, "Die christliche Eschatologie", p. 275.


[...]


In Origen the doctrine of purgatory is very clear. If a man departs this life with lighter faults, he is condemned to fire which burns away the lighter materials, and prepares the soul for the kingdom of God, where nothing defiled may enter. "For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones (1 Corinthians 3); but also wood and hay and stubble, what do you expect when the soul shall be separated from the body? Would you enter into heaven with your wood and hay and stubble and thus defile the kingdom of God; or on account of these hindrances would you remain without and receive no reward for your gold and silver and precious stones? Neither is this just. It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials; for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. But this fire consumes not the creature, but what the creature has himself built, wood and hay and stubble. It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works." (P.G., XIII, col. 445, 448).

The Apostolic practice of praying for the dead which passed into the liturgy of the Church, is as clear in the fourth century as it is in the twentieth. St. Cyril of Jerusalem (Mystagogical Catechesis V.9) describing the liturgy, writes: "Then we pray for the Holy Fathers and Bishops that are dead; and in short for all those who have departed this life in our communion; believing that the souls of those for whom prayers are offered receive very great relief, while this holy and tremendous victim lies upon the altar." St. Gregory of Nyssa (P.G., XLVI, col. 524, 525) states that man's weaknesses are purged in this life by prayer and wisdom, or are expiated in the next by a cleansing fire. "When he has quitted his body and the difference between virtue and vice is known he cannot approach God till the purging fire shall have cleansed the stains with which his soul was infested. That same fire in others will cancel the corruption of matter, and the propensity to evil." About the same time the Apostolic Constitution gives us the formularies used in succouring the dead. "Let us pray for our brethren who sleep in Christ, that God who in his love for men has received the soul of the departed one, may forgive him every fault, and in mercy and clemency receive him into the bosom of Abraham, with those who in this life have pleased God" (P.G. I, col. 1144). Nor can we pass over the use of the diptychs where the names of the dead were inscribed; and this remembrance by name in the Sacred Mysteries--(a practice that was from the Apostles) was considered by Chrysostom as the best way of relieving the dead (Homily 41 on First Corinthians, no. 8).


[...]


Purgatorial fire

At the Council of Florence, Bessarion argued against the existence of real purgatorial fire, and the Greeks were assured that the Roman Church had never issued any dogmatic decree on this subject. In the West the belief in the existence of real fire is common. Augustine (Enarration on Psalm 37, no. 3) speaks of the pain which purgatorial fire causes as more severe than anything a man can suffer in this life, "gravior erit ignis quam quidquid potest homo pati in hac vita" (P.L., col. 397). Gregory the Great speaks of those who after this life "will expiate their faults by purgatorial flames," and he adds "that the pain be more intolerable than any one can suffer in this life" (Ps. 3 poenit., n. 1). Following in the footsteps of Gregory, St. Thomas teaches (IV, dist. xxi, q. i, a.1) that besides the separation of the soul from the sight of God, there is the other punishment from fire. "Una poena damni, in quantum scilicet retardantur a divina visione; alia sensus secundum quod ab igne punientur", and St. Bonaventure not only agrees with St. Thomas but adds (IV, dist. xx, p.1, a.1, q. ii) that this punishment by fire is more severe than any punishment which comes to men in this life; "Gravior est omni temporali poena. quam modo sustinet anima carni conjuncta". How this fire affects the souls of the departed the Doctors do not know, and in such matters it is well to heed the warning of the Council of Trent when it commands the bishops "to exclude from their preaching difficult and subtle questions which tend not to edification', and from the discussion of which there is no increase either in piety or devotion" (Sess. XXV, "De Purgatorio").



 

[superblue]

The purification in purgatory is traditionally likened to purifying by fire. It is a pretty major part of theological exploration of the concept of Purgatory.

 

 

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm


New Testament

There are several passages in the New Testament that point to a process of purification after death. Thus, Jesus Christ declares (Matthew 12:32): "And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come." According to St. Isidore of Seville (Deord. creatur., c. xiv, n. 6) these words prove that in the next life "some sins will be forgiven and purged away by a certain purifying fire." St. Augustine also argues "that some sinners are not forgiven either in this world or in the next would not be truly said unless there were other [sinners] who, though not forgiven in this world, are forgiven in the world to come" (City of God XXI.24). The same interpretation is given by Gregory the Great (Dial., IV, xxxix); St. Bede (commentary on this text); St. Bernard (Sermo lxvi in Cantic., n. 11) and other eminent theological writers.

A further argument is supplied by St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15:

"For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay stubble: Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire."

While this passage presents considerable difficulty, it is regarded by many of the Fathers and theologians as evidence for the existence of an intermediate state in which the dross of lighter transgressions will be burnt away, and the soul thus purified will be saved. This, according to Bellarmine (De Purg., I, 5), is the interpretation commonly given by the Fathers and theologians; and he cites to this effect:

St. Ambrose (commentary on the text, and Sermo xx in Ps. cxvii),
St. Jerome, (Comm. in Amos, c. iv),
St. Augustine (Enarration on Psalm 37),
St. Gregory (Dial., IV, xxxix), and
Origen (Hom. vi in Exod.).
See also St. Thomas, "Contra Gentes,", IV, 91. For a discussion of the exegetical problem, see Atzberger, "Die christliche Eschatologie", p. 275.


[...]


In Origen the doctrine of purgatory is very clear. If a man departs this life with lighter faults, he is condemned to fire which burns away the lighter materials, and prepares the soul for the kingdom of God, where nothing defiled may enter. "For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones (1 Corinthians 3); but also wood and hay and stubble, what do you expect when the soul shall be separated from the body? Would you enter into heaven with your wood and hay and stubble and thus defile the kingdom of God; or on account of these hindrances would you remain without and receive no reward for your gold and silver and precious stones? Neither is this just. It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials; for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. But this fire consumes not the creature, but what the creature has himself built, wood and hay and stubble. It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works." (P.G., XIII, col. 445, 448).

The Apostolic practice of praying for the dead which passed into the liturgy of the Church, is as clear in the fourth century as it is in the twentieth. St. Cyril of Jerusalem (Mystagogical Catechesis V.9) describing the liturgy, writes: "Then we pray for the Holy Fathers and Bishops that are dead; and in short for all those who have departed this life in our communion; believing that the souls of those for whom prayers are offered receive very great relief, while this holy and tremendous victim lies upon the altar." St. Gregory of Nyssa (P.G., XLVI, col. 524, 525) states that man's weaknesses are purged in this life by prayer and wisdom, or are expiated in the next by a cleansing fire. "When he has quitted his body and the difference between virtue and vice is known he cannot approach God till the purging fire shall have cleansed the stains with which his soul was infested. That same fire in others will cancel the corruption of matter, and the propensity to evil." About the same time the Apostolic Constitution gives us the formularies used in succouring the dead. "Let us pray for our brethren who sleep in Christ, that God who in his love for men has received the soul of the departed one, may forgive him every fault, and in mercy and clemency receive him into the bosom of Abraham, with those who in this life have pleased God" (P.G. I, col. 1144). Nor can we pass over the use of the diptychs where the names of the dead were inscribed; and this remembrance by name in the Sacred Mysteries--(a practice that was from the Apostles) was considered by Chrysostom as the best way of relieving the dead (Homily 41 on First Corinthians, no. 8).


[...]


Purgatorial fire

At the Council of Florence, Bessarion argued against the existence of real purgatorial fire, and the Greeks were assured that the Roman Church had never issued any dogmatic decree on this subject. In the West the belief in the existence of real fire is common. Augustine (Enarration on Psalm 37, no. 3) speaks of the pain which purgatorial fire causes as more severe than anything a man can suffer in this life, "gravior erit ignis quam quidquid potest homo pati in hac vita" (P.L., col. 397). Gregory the Great speaks of those who after this life "will expiate their faults by purgatorial flames," and he adds "that the pain be more intolerable than any one can suffer in this life" (Ps. 3 poenit., n. 1). Following in the footsteps of Gregory, St. Thomas teaches (IV, dist. xxi, q. i, a.1) that besides the separation of the soul from the sight of God, there is the other punishment from fire. "Una poena damni, in quantum scilicet retardantur a divina visione; alia sensus secundum quod ab igne punientur", and St. Bonaventure not only agrees with St. Thomas but adds (IV, dist. xx, p.1, a.1, q. ii) that this punishment by fire is more severe than any punishment which comes to men in this life; "Gravior est omni temporali poena. quam modo sustinet anima carni conjuncta". How this fire affects the souls of the departed the Doctors do not know, and in such matters it is well to heed the warning of the Council of Trent when it commands the bishops "to exclude from their preaching difficult and subtle questions which tend not to edification', and from the discussion of which there is no increase either in piety or devotion" (Sess. XXV, "De Purgatorio").



 

First,  ty for the insights on the fire aspect of purgatory, but then I would add, since some of this is coming from St Augustine on it,

 

would it not be presumptuous of St Augustine, to get into the details of Purgatory, with out really experiencing it ?     Here we see warnings when it comes to finally saying the Doctors do not know all the answers and since we are stumped let it go since it doesn't help in piety or devotion, which is basically a cop out answer in the long run to shut down a debate or question. Least how I see it.

 

But again, it is either presumptuous to speak of places one hasn't been to,  or the flip side is, someone has been there and can give a decent account from ones recollection of it. 

 

Fire and Water in history have always been a symbol of purification, and now so is the Blood and Water that flows from the side of Christ by his death on the Cross,  

 

so things in scripture always either eluding or being a parable to something, the fire could be a burning water, similar to acid rain,  for instance....

 

but alas I was getting at how come we don't have books by people with something in the title , I died an went to purgatory an came back, etc, but again ty for the links.

[Nihil Obstat]

First,  ty for the insights on the fire aspect of purgatory, but then I would add, since some of this is coming from St Augustine on it,

 

would it not be presumptuous of St Augustine, to get into the details of Purgatory, with out really experiencing it ?     Here we see warnings when it comes to finally saying the Doctors do not know all the answers and since we are stumped let it go since it doesn't help in piety or devotion, which is basically a cop out answer in the long run to shut down a debate or question. Least how I see it.

 

But again, it is either presumptuous to speak of places one hasn't been to,  or the flip side is, someone has been there and can give a decent account from ones recollection of it. 

 

 

Is it presumptuous for us to speak about God even though we have never beheld Him face to face? Why or why not?

[superblue]

Is it presumptuous for us to speak about God even though we have never beheld Him face to face? Why or why not?

Um we have , in the Eucharist, so no; it wouldn't be presumptuous.

 

 

what I was getting at, is this just guess work on how bad purgatory actually is, or  are people reporting on what they know. ?

 

again plenty of books out there on near death experiences of Heaven an Hell, utter peace and joy, and utter fear and agony, but no one is like, woa just had a near death experience of purgatory it was scary, an there was tons of fire, an not a good fire like ya cook a hot dog an get a great feeling from, but the bad fire that ya get in a house fire kinda fire.

[Nihil Obstat]

Um we have , in the Eucharist, so no; it wouldn't be presumptuous.

 

 

what I was getting at, is this just guess work on how bad purgatory actually is, or  are people reporting on what they know. ?

 

again plenty of books out there on near death experiences of Heaven an Hell, utter peace and joy, and utter fear and agony, but no one is like, woa just had a near death experience of purgatory it was scary, an there was tons of fire, an not a good fire like ya cook a hot dog an get a great feeling from, but the bad fire that ya get in a house fire kinda fire.

Even in the Eucharist, God has chosen to veil Himself in the species of simple bread and wine.

 

In terms of purgatory, most of what we believe is based on reasoned theological discourse, most of which comes from saints and Doctors of the Church. As with any subject, if we do not know something then we look at what we do know and make reasonable conclusions.

Much of Catholic thought on purgatory has speculative elements, and the presence of purgatorial fire is one of those elements. But it has a relatively high degree of authority for its speculative nature, simply because the theological arguments are well established and well refined.

[Ice_nine]

I think being flayed alive would be the ideal way to go \m/. You must have really pissed some people off to earn that exit.

 

Preferably, whether freezing or burning or dying from the bubonic plague, I'd like to be able to know that death is coming. I don't want to die instantly in my sleep or in a car crash. Insha'allah

[PhuturePriest]

I'd rather like to die either as a martyr or in some way that will allow me to receive last Rites.