If God Wished That Nobody Would Perish In Hell, Then Why Did He Create

[Guest]

And honestly life and Heaven for eternity will be something so good the mind can not even comprehend it. So someone that doesn't make it there because of their actions on earth being erased is not non punishment in my eyes. It seems like a very real punishment. Just not one that involves physical torture for all of eternity. Because again Holy Mother Church teaches torture is always wrong and never ok. Although if that's the route God ends up going then it's his choice. I pray I don't experience it or anyone I know.

Edited December 31, 2014 by Guest

[Not A Real Name]

Punishment without the possibility of redemption is meaningless and irrational. There are more rational conceptions of God, such as that in the Bhagavad Gita, where the universe is a chaotic and ongoing process of change, constant pursuit of desire, which only ends when desire ends, when one realizes the meaninglessness of all attachment and desire, of all change. In that case, personal gods such as Krishna, Jesus, etc. are only manifestations of a God of pure being.

 

 

 

 

Punishment without the possibility of redemption?  You forget that those who are in hell are there because they rejected redemption. Furthermore nature abhors a vacuum.  That which is empty will be filled.  Christianity is the only religion which answers this phenomenon, for only Christianity has it's followers empty themselves so that Christ can live in them.  Communion with God is the purposes of our existence and without this communion there is only emptying and emptying and emptying and nothing left but self-worship.      

 

 

 

 

 

Thankfully, mush-minded liberalism has tried to move us beyond a world where the unrepentant wicked have their heads bashed in with rocks or their bodies burned at the stake in anticipation of their eternal punishment. Maybe someday we'll get beyond a world where prisons are icons of the meaningless punishment of hell.

 

 

Yes, what a progressive world such liberalism has ushered in where women and men deliver up countless innocent unborn babies to death, and justify their actions with the phrase, "Hoc est enim corpus meum."  And what is their reason for pronouncing death on these innocent human beings?  For career, for convenience, for selfish motives, and human respect?   Yes, such liberalism is above the barbarism of the past. :rolleyes:

[Era Might]

 

 

Punishment without the possibility of redemption?  You forget that those who are in hell are there because they rejected redemption. Furthermore nature abhors a vacuum.  That which is empty will be filled.  Christianity is the only religion which answers this phenomenon, for only Christianity has it's followers empty themselves so that Christ can live in them.  Communion with God is the purposes of our existence and without this communion there is only emptying and emptying and emptying and nothing left but self-worship.      

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, what a progressive world such liberalism has ushered in where women and men deliver up countless innocent unborn babies to death, and justify their actions with the phrase, "Hoc est enim corpus meum."  And what is their reason for pronouncing death on these innocent human beings?  For career, for convenience, for selfish motives, and human respect?   Yes, such liberalism is above the barbarism of the past. :rolleyes:

 

 

I don't believe redemption can have limits (i.e., in regards to what we are discussing, the existence of a hell). It is more rational to believe that the soul ceases to exist, or that there is no "soul," than to believe that there is an impossibility of redemption (something I would never admit for any human being in any situation, it's all we've got as human beings). And by redemption, I don't mean a mythological sacrificial substitute of a God-man, but the process of an individual becoming conscious of themselves and their lives, the good and bad in it.

 

Liberalism began long before abortion and its culture wars in contemporary America.

Edited January 1, 2015 by Era Might

[Not A Real Name]

I don't believe redemption can have limits (i.e., in regards to what we are discussing, the existence of a hell). It is more rational to believe that the soul ceases to exist, or that there is no "soul," than to believe that there is an impossibility of redemption (something I would never admit for any human being in any situation, it's all we've got as human beings). And by redemption, I don't mean a mythological sacrificial substitute of a God-man, but the process of an individual becoming conscious of themselves and their lives, the good and bad in it.

 

But redemption does have limits.  If someone dose not want to be redeemed they cannot be redeemed. 

[Era Might]

But redemption does have limits.  If someone dose not want to be redeemed they cannot be redeemed. 

 

I don't believe in eternal choices. Human beings are finite creatures with finite consciousness, of themselves, of their environment, of other people. Redemption is always a process of consciousness, recognizing what motivates and shapes our decisions, conscious and unconscious. If this is no longer possible after death, then it is more rational to believe there is no "soul" than to believe the soul makes an eternal act completely unlike everything that makes us human.

[xSilverPhinx]

I don't feel comfortable going into detail in this thread. It was a dark moment and I will confess it in Confession. I will tell you though in my 33 years I have now had at least 5 distinct events happen that leave no question in my mind God communicated with me. You can communicate with God everyday through prayer but as a skeptic you could dismiss that if you wanted. As far as these events that happened though you would have a tougher time dismissing them. Sure you could say I'm lying because you don't know me ect ect but that doesn't change what happened. One of these events happened just recently after a year of sobriety. Even atheist Michael Shermer (think that's his name) founder of skeptic magazine just experienced an event like this that in his words shaked his skepticism to its core. Google it. The reason people have these experiences is because God is real. The reason why nature's laws and cosmological constant are so precise is because God is real. The reason we experience love and consciousness is because God is real. It's a reality even if you try to run from it and hope it isn't true. I've been all for someone convincing me in the past that God wasn't real. I thought science would maybe do that when I started investigating but the opposite was true. It made my faith even stronger. Have I questioned the goodness of God before ? Yep. Just as recently as yesterday. But he's big enough to let me vent and go crazy then talk some reason into me when I'm finished.

 

Ok fair enough.  :joecool:

 

I'm glad for you that you feel god is real. For me though, no gods are.  :idontknow:

[Guest]

There's only One God.

[Guest]

Have you seen the movie Heaven is for Real? The boy goes outside of his body at the hospital and watches his dad screaming at God alone in another room. How is this possible if consciousness is contained only in the brain? (never mind the fact scientist can't even begin to figure consciousness out) He also meets his dead sister he never knew he had. Again how is this possible? The only logical response besides God being real is that he's lying. Is everyone a liar who have these experiences that can't be explained? Like I said in the post before even atheist founder of skeptic magazine recently had an experience that shook his skeptism to the core. At what point do you look at all this stuff and say hey it looks as if this no God thing may be the wrong conclusion?

Edited January 1, 2015 by Guest

[Era Might]

Have you seen the movie Heaven Is For Real? The boy goes outside of his body at the hospital and watches his dad cursing out God alone in a room. How is this possible if consciousness is contained only in the brain? He also meets his dead sister he never knew he had. Again how is this possible? The only logical response besides God being real is that he's lying. Is everyone a liar who have these experiences that can't be explained? Like I said in the post before even the atheist founder of skeptical magazine recently had an experience that shook his skeptism to the core. At what point do you look at all this stuff and say hey it looks as if this no God thing may be the wrong conclusion?

 

I don't think it's irrational to leave open the possibility that there is more than a material existence. The psychologist Carl Jung explored the idea of the unconscious and how our mythologies have common archetypes (e.g., the hero-god who sacrifices himself for his people). But to leave open that mystery is different from believing in a personal god narrative. All religions have stories of mystical experiences, encounters with gods and saints, etc. There is clearly something "spiritual" about the world, something deep and mysterious, but I don't think the individual religions are the answers to this. They are all reflections of man's search for meaning. Whether this includes some kind of existence after death, who knows, but I don't think the idea of heaven and hell are very likely. I'm more inclined to hold out that there is some kind of divinity in nature itself, that it is eternal, and somehow we all come from it and go back to it. Who knows.

[Guest]

But what if you have experiences with this personal God? Do you just write them off? On October 5th 2014 a little over a year of being sober I was in my apartment praying to God thanking him. It got kinda of emotional and I even teared up. A few minutes later I go looking for an old tax form in my closet. While searching for it I end up finding my best friends brothers memorial from his funeral. He was a good friend of mine also. He died in a drunk driving accident in 2002. A few days before he died I woke up from my sleep and said Jeff is going to die. What do you know a few days later my best friend is waking me up at my front door telling me Jeff died late that night in a drunk driving accident. So fast forward to October 5th 2014. I find his memorial just minutes after praying and thanking God for removing alcohol out of my life. With no intention of finding it or even knowing where it was. Also with no idea that he had died around this time of year. The thought of him was nowhere in my mind. So I find his memorial and Jesus is on the front. As I open it Jeffs piercing blue eyes are staring me dead on. It shows his birth date and also the day he passed. And what do you know the day he passed was October 5th. I get goosebumps and it feels as if God is in the room with me. I go out to my phone and check the date and sure enough it's October 5th. This to me is an example of a personal God at work with an unworthy sinner like myself. This God ha had unconditional love and forgiveness for me no matter how many times I've offended him and turned my back on him.

Edited January 1, 2015 by Guest

[Era Might]

I can't explain any of the coincidences, but Jung does argue that there does seem to be some relationship between the unconscious and the external environment, though it's speculative. You say that he was "nowhere on your mind," but we do a lot of things based on what is hidden in our unconscious mind, and we make connections based on personal memories, etc. I was watching something about some kind of atom and how scientists discovered some kind of phenomenon where two separated atoms seem to respond the exact same ways, even though they are no longer connected and have no observable way of communicating with each other.

 

I'm not trying to say it is or it isn't a personal god at work, just that from my perspective, there are more rational possibilities. If it were a personal god, I don't see why he would need to cloak himself in coincidence, private visions, etc. But I would also say that even if it isn't a personal god, that doesn't make it meaningless...that's essential to being human, creating meaning out of a very complex and fragmented experience. We do that through mythology, religion, etc.

Edited January 1, 2015 by Era Might

[Guest]

How does the 5 year old see his dad alone yelling at God in a locked room at the hospital or meet his deceased sister that he wasn't aware of? It seems to me that what we call consciousness is not tied down in the brain.

Edited January 1, 2015 by Guest

[Era Might]

Rather than try to explain one claim of supernatural experience, I would point out that there are thousands and thousands of such claims, all of them different, some bizarre, etc. A honestly, I wouldn't put much attention to a book called "Heaven Is for Real" and a New York Times Bestseller. People like feel-good stories. When money and marketing is involved, I wouldn't give it any spiritual attention.

[Not A Real Name]

I don't believe in eternal choices. Human beings are finite creatures with finite consciousness, of themselves, of their environment, of other people. Redemption is always a process of consciousness, recognizing what motivates and shapes our decisions, conscious and unconscious. If this is no longer possible after death, then it is more rational to believe there is no "soul" than to believe the soul makes an eternal act completely unlike everything that makes us human.

 

Our choices are eternal because they deal with the eternal; God. Our ability to accumulate an infinite amount of knowledge and our capacity to have an infinite amount of joy, shows us that there are parts of us which are not finite (the intellect and the will), and which can only be satisfied by that which is eternal; God. The finite things of this world cannot satisfy them, and we know this because no one has ever claimed they have too much of both joy and knowledge.  Every choice we make is motivated by these two things and our lives are spent in the pursuit of them. Every choice we make is either toward the eternal or away from it, and this is because the eternal is the very thing which holds our purpose for existence.  It is why we were created and it is the very thing which separates us from all other living things on this planet.  The eternal is just as much a part of our humanity as our own bodies. 

[Era Might]

Our choices are eternal because they deal with the eternal; God. Our ability to accumulate an infinite amount of knowledge and our capacity to have an infinite amount of joy, shows us that there are parts of us which are not finite (the intellect and the will), and which can only be satisfied by that which is eternal; God. The finite things of this world cannot satisfy them, and we know this because no one has ever claimed they have too much of both joy and knowledge.  Every choice we make is motivated by these two things and our lives are spent in the pursuit of them. Every choice we make is either toward the eternal or away from it, and this is because the eternal is the very thing which holds our purpose for existence.  It is why we were created and it is the very thing which separates us from all other living things on this planet.  The eternal is just as much a part of our humanity as our own bodies. 

 

None of that requires a personal or Christian god. But I think it's also questionable that our purpose for existence is eternal. We live and move in an environment, a history, with capacities that we have developed either biologically, culturally, socially, etc. That brief moment of life is itself a reason, and to me a more compelling reason, because it is personal. It is not chalked up to an "eternal" Other that we have to attain after death, but makes our limitations the very basis of a personal existence. I exist to deal with the family I have, not to attain to an eternal platonic idea of family in the next life.

 

I'm more inclined to the Hindu idea that enlightenment comes when we realize that all change and desire is meaningless, that we are part of the eternal, and change and desire only keeps us alienated from it. Reincarnation thus is more logical than hell, because at least with reincarnation redemption is ongoing and always possible, until each person realizes that their lives are spent in non-being rather than being, in desire rather than recognition of the eternal in which they already participate.

 

In that context the only eternal choice is that there is no choice, only acceptance of the eternal from which we come and to which we return. Until then, we remain enslaved to the world of choices, desires, and change.

Edited January 1, 2015 by Era Might