Ice_nine Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 yay! It's been a while since I've seen NFP is contraception debate. *eats popcorn* Anyhow I think there's a fundamental difference between deliberately frustrating the procreative act than simply avoiding the act altogether. ANYWHO, in regards to the OP, yes of course. It's hard. It's worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cherie Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 No. The Church has explicitly said using NFP with a contraceptive mindset period is sinful. No. Actually the Church has never said such a thing at all. The phrase "contraceptive mindset" was coined by PJPII in Familiaris Consortio and later Evangelium Vitae to (quoting Simcha Fisher here) "describe a corrosive modern mindset, which not only encompasses a widespread use of literal contraception, but also lays the groundwork for other disastrous offences against the human person, such as abortion and euthanasia. Where is the evidence he was speaking of people who use NFP with wrong motives? Nowhere. Nowhere at all." (From her awesome book, "The Sinner's Guide to Natural Family Planning. Jack, you need to read that book.) NFP literally CANNOT be used contraceptively. That makes absolutely no sense because of what NFP--and contraception--is in essence. It can be used selfishly, sure. But not contraceptively. Ever. I see a lot of ignorance here regarding the meaning of "open to life" and the fact that a sexual act must be "procreative and unitive." Procreative does NOT necessarily equal fertile. Big difference there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cherie Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 People get scandalized by hearing this, but guess what: the Church isn't against birth control. SHOCK! It's true. Birth control = controlling births, spacing pregnancies, limiting family size. In conversations amongst Catholics, the term "birth control" is loaded, because it's equated with ARTIFICIAL birth control or contraception. Those ARE immoral, and yes, the Church is against their use for preventing pregnancy. But you have to be precise when you use terms, and there is nothing inherently sinful with limiting family size. NFP is the only morally acceptable means of doing that, provided you have "well-grounded reasons." (http://www.hprweb.com/2008/03/humanae-vitae-grave-motives-to-use-a-good-translation/ -- It's LONG, but it's worth the read for every Catholic.) And any Catholic married couple who willingly signs up for long stretches of abstinence (8-14 days on average, sometimes lots longer) usually has a good reason for doing so! It's funny when people try so hard to say "NFP isn't Catholic birth control!" What they mean to say is that NFP is MORE than just a Catholic means of spacing pregnancies; that's certainly true. But it actually kind of IS "Catholic birth control," because the term "birth control" is simply "controlling births." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fides' Jack Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Jack the problem with your outlook is it basically boils down to "Catholics can only have sex during times of ovulation. Any sexual intercourse outside of ovulation is contraception." Now that sounds ridiculous, because it is ridiculous. You see Jack while some may have the mindset to use NFP to always avoid pregnancy (which is sinful), there are also those who do not. Regardless a person's mindset is not enough to render NFP itself as contraception. The reason being is NFP does not place any barriers to conception, which means the couples are still open to the possibility of life if it happens. Plus you cannot accuse one couple of contracepting by using NFP and then not accuse another couple of contraception when they have sex outside of ovulation. I would suggest reading this article. Fr. Frank Pavone who is the National Director of Priests for Life makes some good points. http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/resources/life-and-family/sexuality-contraception/birth-control-and-nfp-whats-the-difference/ Credo - no, I think you've misunderstood my position. I have nothing against NFP itself - my wife and I used it to help us conceive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fides' Jack Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 No. The Church has explicitly said using NFP with a contraceptive mindset period is sinful. Give me a source. Because basically what you're saying is contradictory. You're saying, "it's OK to be sinful when it's needed." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fides' Jack Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Cherie - thanks. I think you pointed out what's going on here. It's a matter of semantics. I used the term contraception in the broadest sense, i.e. anything against conception. Including "mindsets". So I guess I should change my original post to something closer to this: I had a hard time accepting that NFP is a legitimate, moral means of birth control. But again, birth control here is also in its broadest sense. Anything that controls births... I think we can all agree that artificial contraception is bad, and that NFP is widely used for selfish reasons. I just happen to draw the line for what becomes selfish in a different place than a lot of people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhuturePriest Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Give me a source. Because basically what you're saying is contradictory. You're saying, "it's OK to be sinful when it's needed." No, that's not what I said at all, actually, nor did I imply it in any sort of way. I'll let John Paul take it from here, as he is much smarter and concise than I am. http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/marriage-and-family/natural-family-planning/awareness-week/upload/Why-NFP-Differs-from-Contraception-JPII.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cherie Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Cherie - thanks. I think you pointed out what's going on here. It's a matter of semantics. I used the term contraception in the broadest sense, i.e. anything against conception. Including "mindsets". So I guess I should change my original post to something closer to this:I had a hard time accepting that NFP is a legitimate, moral means of birth control. But again, birth control here is also in its broadest sense. Anything that controls births... I think we can all agree that artificial contraception is bad, and that NFP is widely used for selfish reasons. I just happen to draw the line for what becomes selfish in a different place than a lot of people.I appreciate your response, but I must say I strongly disagree with the idea that "NFP is widely used for selfish reasons." Please, find me one of those couples using NFP selfishly. I think they must be a myth. Every couple I've ever known using NFP (and that's quite a lot) are doing so with "fear and trembling." You mean those couples using NFP in order to get their Mercedes and Disney vacation every year? I'll donate $50 to your charity of choice if you can find me one! NFP is designed with built-in sacrifices; those inclined toward selfishness aren't going to go through the hassle of NFP, they'll just use contraception. Anyway, this is a total hijack; sorry about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fides' Jack Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I appreciate your response, but I must say I strongly disagree with the idea that "NFP is widely used for selfish reasons." Please, find me one of those couples using NFP selfishly. I think they must be a myth. Every couple I've ever known using NFP (and that's quite a lot) are doing so with "fear and trembling." You mean those couples using NFP in order to get their Mercedes and Disney vacation every year? I'll donate $50 to your charity of choice if you can find me one! NFP is designed with built-in sacrifices; those inclined toward selfishness aren't going to go through the hassle of NFP, they'll just use contraception. Anyway, this is a total hijack; sorry about that. Obviously, that's something I can't do. I can't point fingers at any single person. Because that would be judging, and I'm not out to judge anyone. All I can do is generalize here, which a lot of people don't like, but it makes me something of a realist. We live in a culture with a terribly vast contraceptive mentality. Given that, it's very likely that there are a great number of people using NFP selfishly. If you don't believe that, then I think you have an innocent naivete which I admire. I hope you keep it. I think that kind of attitude is missing in our world - myself included. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fides' Jack Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) No, that's not what I said at all, actually, nor did I imply it in any sort of way. I'll let John Paul take it from here, as he is much smarter and concise than I am. http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/marriage-and-family/natural-family-planning/awareness-week/upload/Why-NFP-Differs-from-Contraception-JPII.pdf sigh... I understand the basics of why NFP differs from contraception. I'm not an idiot. I've done my homework on this. The thread is about what we have had to conform our own beliefs to Church teaching. I'm saying I have conformed my beliefs to Church teaching. Why am I being attacked for that? Because I misused the term "contraception"? OK - I'm sorry for using that term. I can see now that people have a very emotional response to it, and probably rightly so. We all need to, like, chillax. This is something of a sensitive topic - if people want to talk about it, I'm willing to do so in the Raising Small Humans board. Edited August 21, 2014 by fides' Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhuturePriest Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 sigh... I understand the basics of why NFP differs from contraception. I'm not an idiot. I've done my homework on this. The thread is about what we have had to conform our own beliefs to Church teaching. I'm saying I have conformed my beliefs to Church teaching. Why am I being attacked for that? Because I misused the term "contraception"? OK - I'm sorry for using that term. I can see now that people have a very emotional response to it, and probably rightly so. We all need to, like, chillax. This is something of a sensitive topic - if people want to talk about it, I'm willing to do so in the Raising Small Humans board. Please don't misread my tone -- I'm not offended or upset in any way, and I'm sorry you read my posts in that way. I just wanted to clarify Church teaching, because I thought you didn't have a clear understanding of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fides' Jack Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Well, then perhaps I'm the only one who needs to calm down. Every time any concern is shown over people using NFP to avoid pregnancy, everybody starts assuming that they're comparing it to artificial contraception, which doesn't make any sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cherie Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Every time any concern is shown over people using NFP to avoid pregnancy, everybody starts assuming that they're comparing it to artificial contraception, which doesn't make any sense to me. Well, I'd reckon that'd be because you said NFP WAS contraception. I know you have since clarified, but it was hard to tell from your first comment. No harm done. :) Moving on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrossCuT Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I dont really care much for tearing the contraception word apart. Who cares, its a word. Just use whatever means fits best for your personal circumstances that doesnt involve killing people if you can help it. The rest of it is just water under the bridge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhuturePriest Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I dont really care much for tearing the contraception word apart. Who cares, its a word. Just use whatever means fits best for your personal circumstances that doesnt involve killing people if you can help it. The rest of it is just water under the bridge. There are a lot of bad and harmful things you can do that don't kill people. :| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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