Immaculate Conception

[Neal4Christ]

Of all the doctrines of Mary, this one and her sinlessness give me hardest time in my head. Where did this doctrine find its roots and why is it that important? Forgive me if I seem naive, but I truly do wonder. I am getting ready to read a book about Mary, so I may find my answers there, but I wanted to see if I could get any good tidbits here.

Thank-you in advance and may God bless!

In Christ,
Neal, a devout seeker for Truth

[voiciblanche]

I'm sure everyone will add everything they know, and I'm no Church Scholar, but I'll stick in my .02.

Jesus Christ, of course, is perfect. He's God.

The Father has known for all eternity of His Plan. He knew that He was going to send His only Son to save us. He also knew that He had chosen Mary to give birth to His Son.

He did not want His perfect Son born of a "dirty" Mary. He wanted the Mother of His Son to be immaculate. Pure in every way. Hence, the Immaculate Conception. At the moment of conception, Mary was created without the stain of original sin.

MARY WAS NOT A ROBOT. She could have sinned! She didn't, but she could have if she wanted to. God, however, preserved her from sin. I've given this analogy before, and I think it works well. Sin is like a hole. We fall in the hole. With Mary, God steps in and says, "Mary, there's a hole there." This isn't to say that God doesn't lead us away from sin. I don't really know how to fit that in.

[Crusader_4]

Also she was the "Ark of the New Covenant" she carried Jesus into this world. One only needs to take a look at how the early Jews who carried the Ark had to be clean and purified and such. I dont have the verse on me right now but imagine how clean someone has to be who not only is carrying the ark but who Jesus takes his form after...think about it imagine seeing Jesus with the eyes of his mother God did not want jesus to for lack of better words as voici mentioned "be born of someone dirty".

[Hananiah]

Many early Church fathers, most notably St. Irenaeus, described Mary as the New Eve, just as Christ was the new Adam. As a woman's disobedience brought death into the world, so a woman's obedience brought salvation (Jesus Christ) into the world. And since Adam, Eve, and Christ were all born sinless, so it would only make sense that the fourth member of this quartet, Mary, be born sinless.

[Cure of Ars]

The angel also called Mary “full of grace”. (luke 1:28) The Greek word that is used refers not just to the past or the present or the future but to all three. If Mary is graced for the past, present, and future, it leaves no room for sin.

[Apotheoun]

When the angel Gabriel greets Mary he calls her "full of grace," and this phrase is a translation of the Greek perfect passive participle [i]kecharitomene[/i]. The form of this Greek term indicates the continuance of a completed action. Thus, when Gabriel greets Mary he is not bestowing grace upon her; instead, he is recognizing her already existing condition of being in a state of grace. Based on the form of the Greek word used in this verse, the angel is recognizing that Mary has possessed this grace perfectly from the beginning of her existence, and that she continues in it, and that it is a perfectly enduring condition of her life.

[Bruce S]

I like to use the RED LETTER words in scripture the best, those are where we can see what our LORD, Jesus said:

So, how did Jesus Himself address Mary, his earthly 'Mother'?

Jesus referred to His mother when Mary asked to see Him one day:

[quote]"Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother." Matthew 12:48-50[/quote]

Jesus did not say, "Usher in this blessed woman."Rather, He replied that anyone who obeys God' s Word is equal with Mary. Jesus refused to exalt her. That means, to me, that Jesus knew EXACTLY the degree of "Veneration" that one should attach to Mary, and the biblical Mary is now quite a different Mary, at least according to my interpretation of this CRITICAL and INFORMATIVE passage from scripture.


Mary, Sinless?

CURRENT, Catholic doctrines make the claims, that Mary never sinned and, hence, was redeemed and different from the moment of her birth:

[quote]
"Espousing the divine will for salvation whole-heartedly, without a single sin to restrain her, she gave herself entirely to the person and to the work of her Son..." Pg. 124, #494 CC

"By the grace of God Mary remained free of every personal sin her whole life long." Pg. 124, #493 CC

[/quote]


Are these derived from HISTORICAL SCRIPTURE, no, just by evolving, changing traditions.

[quote]"Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, 'full of grace' through God, was redeemed from the moment of her conception." [/quote]

"EVER MORE AWARE?" That dear friends, is what this is about, more and more, over the intervening centuries the Marialis Cultus, has become a larger thing, evolving and redefining itself to a current point that certainly was not that of the Apostolic era.

The Bible identifies Jesus as the ONLY sinless One, not Mary:

[quote]"For he hath made him (Jesus) to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." 2 Corinthians 5:21 [/quote]

That passage pretty much puts forth Jesus alone, as the only sinless human [God] that has ever lived.

As for everyone else, including Mary:

[quote]
"They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." Romans 3:12

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" Romans 3:23
"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:" Romans 3:10

[/quote]

ALL have sinned, ALL. That includes Mary, of course, especially since when this passage was written, Mary was quite alive, and known to the author Paul, if Mary was ANOTHER exclusion to ALL HAVE SINNED, Paul would have modified those passages, wouldn't he?

And we have the WORSHIP *OF* Mary too to contend with:

[quote]"The Church' s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship." Pg. 253, #971 - CC [/quote]

Just some scriptural food for thought here, best to everyone.

And God speed and God bless.

[Aloysius]

Mary was not in Rome, Paul was writing to ROME, saying: "Hey rome, you're all sinners, as the rest of mankind is" there was no point in saying "except Jesus and His mother"

for Mary was humble and would not want such a big fuss made out of her while she was alive. she was content teaching the apostles about the great events of the Birth of the Lord, of all the wisdom she had received from Him living with Him for 30 years.

In the passage, Jesus does not renounce His mother, besides that, He clearly tell the disciple to behold as their mother Mary.

ΙΗΣΟΥΣ ΟΥΝ ΙΔΩΝ ΤΗΝ ΜΗΤΕΡΑ ΚΑΙ ΤΟΝ [b]ΜΑΘΗΤΗΝ [/b]ΠΑΡΕΣΤΩΤΑ ΟΝ ΗΓΑΠΑ ΛΕΓΕΙ ΤΗ ΜΗΤΡΙ ΓΥΝΑΙ ΙΔΕ Ο ΥΙΟΣ ΣΟΥ ΕΙΤΑ ΛΕΓΕΙ ΤΩ ΜΑΘΗΤΗ ΙΔΕ Η ΜΗΤΗΡ ΣΟΥ ΚΑΙ ΑΠ ΕΚΕΙΝΗΣ ΤΗΣ ΩΡΑΣ ΕΛΑΒΕΝ Ο [b]ΜΑΘΗΤΗΣ [/b]ΑΥΤΗΝ ΕΙΣ ΤΑ ΙΔΙΑ


John may have been refering to himself with ΜΑΘΗΤΗΣ (disciple, pupil, learner) but He clearly still used the world ΜΑΘΗΤΗΣ to show us all that Mary is our mother.

This is sooo clear to unclouded eyes that Jesus is acting as the new Adam (as First Letter of St Paul to the Corinthians 15:22 says He is) and calling Mary the mother of the Church, as Adam called Eve the mother of all who would be born in their sin(Genesis 3:20), Jesus calls Mary the mother of all those who would be freed from sin (John 19:27)

Pax Amorque Christi, Bruce

[VeraMaria]

An amazing book to read on this is "Hail Holy Queen" by Scott Hahn.

Also, here's a website

[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Immaculate...n_and_Assum.asp[/url]

[Neal4Christ]

Thank-you for all of your quick, kind responses. They are helpful, especially the discussion of the "full of grace" phrase used by the angel. I am reading a book that is helpful, [i]The Catholic Answer Book of Mary[/i] edited by Peter Stravinskas.

Bruce,

Let me just address a couple of things. First,

[quote][b]That means, to me, that Jesus knew EXACTLY the degree of "Veneration" that one should attach to Mary, and the biblical Mary is now quite a different Mary, at least according to my interpretation of this CRITICAL and INFORMATIVE passage from scripture.
[/b][/quote]

Do you think that Jesus did not "honor his mother" any differently than any other person? Wouldn't he then break one of the commandments and have sinned?

Second,

[quote][b]That passage pretty much puts forth Jesus alone, as the only sinless human [God] that has ever lived.
[/b][/quote]

Actually, this passage does not do what you say it does. It does not say "only." It is fact stated about Jesus. That's it.

And for all,

Wouldn't it be true that Mary still [i]could[/i] have sinned, but chose not to?

God bless you all,
Neal

[voiciblanche]

Neal -

You're right. Mary [i] could [/i] have sinned. She chose not to. She still had free will; she was not a robot.

Bruce -

You're making it sound as if Mary was redeemed by her own sinlessness. I dont think that's quite right. She was redeemed by the death of her Son. To say otherwise would be to say that she did not need God, and that she was the instrument of her own salvation. Which would put her on the same level of God. [i] Which Catholics do not do! [/i] Can anyone back me up on this?

[Neal4Christ]

[quote][b]You're making it sound as if Mary was redeemed by her own sinlessness. I dont think that's quite right. She was redeemed by the death of her Son.[/b][/quote]

You are correct in your assessment.

[quote][b]To become the mother of the Savior, Mary "was enriched by God with gifts appropriate to such a role." The angel Gabriel at the moment of the annunciation salutes her as "full of grace." In fact, in order for Mary to be able to give the free assent of her faith to the announcement of her vocation, it was necessary that she be wholly borne by God's grace.  -CCC, 490[/b][/quote]

and

[quote][b]Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, "full of grace" through God, was [i]redeemed[/i] from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854: "The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, [i]by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race[/i], preserved immune from all stain of original sin."  -CCC 491[/b][/quote]

and

[quote][b]The "splendor of an entirely unique holiness" by which Mary is "enriched from the first instant of her conception" comes [i]wholly from Christ: she is "redeemed, in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son[/i]."  -CCC 492[/b][/quote]

and one more

[quote][b][i]By the grace of God[/i] Mary remained free of every personal sin her whole life long.  -CCC 493[/b][/quote]

Also, from the book I am currently reading:

[quote][b]Mary is not intrinsically superior, in essence, to the rest of us. She receieved from God all of the grace that she posessed in abundance...She was merely given more of it at one time, and earlier, than we.  -[i]The Catholic Answer Book of Mary[/i], edited by Peter Stravinskas[/b][/quote]

It is clear that the Church does not teach that it is by Mary's own merits she was sinless, but by an act of God's grace and by the merits of her son, Our Lord Jesus Christ. Also, if you think about it, the only way she could have had a "free" choice was if she was sinless. If she had the taint of sin in her life her choice would not have been free, but rather biased, bent towards sin.

[i]Among these we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of body and mind, and so we were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind." [/i]Eph. 2:3, RSV

And until the grace of God enters our lives, we are slaves to sin (See Romans 6).

God bless you and may the peace of Christ be with you!

In Christ,
Neal

Edited June 10, 2004 by Neal4Christ

[BeenaBobba]

Hi Bruce,

That passage in Romans says that all have sinned and fall short; however, that passage cannot be all-inclusive. After all, Jesus never sinned, so "all" cannot possibly refer to all people in a numerical sense, i.e., it is certainly possible that Mary wasn't included in that passage. How, then, would one know if Mary truly was without sin? Well, the early Christians said that she was without sin. That's important evidence.

Like everyone else, Mary needed a Savior. In the first chapter of Luke, Mary calls God her Savior. I've heard an analogy that explains this. For us: Someone walking through the woods falls into a pile of mud. A man sees this, reaches down and takes the person out of the mud, and then brings the person home to clean up. For Mary: A man sees a woman walking in the woods and tells her to avoid the pile of mud. She does, so she doesn't end up falling into the mud like everyone else does.

God bless,

Jennifer

[BeenaBobba]

[quote name='voiciblanche' date='Jun 10 2004, 01:55 PM'] You're making it sound as if Mary was redeemed by her own sinlessness. I dont think that's quite right. She was redeemed by the death of her Son. To say otherwise would be to say that she did not need God, and that she was the instrument of her own salvation. Which would put her on the same level of God. [i] Which Catholics do not do! [/i] Can anyone back me up on this? [/quote]
You're absolutely correct about that.

God bless,

Jen

[BeenaBobba]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Jun 10 2004, 09:44 AM'] And we have the WORSHIP *OF* Mary too to contend with [/quote]
In all due respect, that quotation has nothing to do with the worship of Mary. Catholics are forbidden from worshipping Mary; however, what that passage is saying is that honoring Mary as our Mother (and as the Mother of God) brings us closer to Jesus. Mary presents her Beloved Son to us just as she presented Him to her cousin, Elizabeth, when He was in her womb. Jesus is God. He didn't [b]need[/b] to be born of a woman, but He chose to be. He doesn't need to be presented by His Mother, but He's chosen to do so. And as Mary said in the first chapter of Luke, future generations shall call her "blessed."

God bless,

Jennifer