I'm Sorry, Robin Williams, Suicide Is Selfish

[Benedictus]

All suicides have consequences. It can be very hard on those finding or seeing a person who has committed suicide. Of course, it's traumatic on friends and family. It's natural for some people to feel a mix of emotions -  be it anger, guilt, disappointment, compassion, love, sorrow, disbelief etc for some period of time. I can see why a person may feel so much pain and hurt that they want to blame the person for causing this. I can understand why a person is seen as selfish for committing a suicide, if seen through the consequences it causes to others. But selfishness implies, at least to me, some conscious and rational decision to put oneself before others.  This isn't usually the case for those who commit suicide. I therefore don't think such a label, judgement and stigma is necessarily a fair or helpful way of approaching the issue.

When I did my psychiatric training I had to learn to deal with those who were suicidal and or self harming.  Despite a generally safe environment some still managed to commit suicide whilst in hospital. I would often sit with those assessed as most at risk of suicide or severe self harm, with one aim being to reduce their chances of using ligatures etc. The vast majority of those with severe clinical depression were consumed with the despair and darkness of their condition. The factors that link into this are vast and varied: PTSD, physical illness, loss, abuse, poverty, alienation, despair. The vast majority, if not all, never seemed to set out to hurt their loved ones by attempting suicide. But they definitely had a complete loss of proportion and perspective. Some actually believed that they caused more suffering to their loved ones by being alive, due to their perceived personal failure or burden etc. Delusions on this scale are common false beliefs, magnified in the persons mind.

A number of those who commit suicide also have bipolar or schizophrenia. The erratic moods can cause people to make quick and irrational decisions. Some may have hallucinations, such as seeing or hearing oppressive voices (demons, abusers etc), often telling them to kill themselves. Some believe they have to kill themselves because the voices threaten to harm loved ones if they don't etc. It's sad seeing people go through this pain and treatments don't always control these patterns. Others commit suicide whilst under the influence of drink or drugs, making any underlying condition or emotion worse.

Many people who commit suicide aren't even known to mental health services, and the reasons for that are countless. But the pain and turmoil they may well go through isn't necessarily any less.
Those who survive a suicide attempt usually say they didn't necessarily ponder or plan for very long beforehand. They didn't necessarily weigh up the pros and cons as some may think they would. It may well have been a series of emotions or situations that built up and led them into that position. The crunch may simply present itself to them and they just do it in that moment. Some actually say it's like an autopilot sensation, a detached and depersonalized state. There isn't necessarily a clear or rational thought pattern. So concepts of selfishness, blame, consequences, sin and all that doesn't even necessarily compute.

All the emotions relatives and friends may feel after a suicide are valid. But I think they need to be held up and given to God so that the person feeling this hurt afterwards can move towards forgiveness towards the one who took their life. Otherwise they are holding onto it and it's unlikely to put them in a good place. That maybe easier said than done, and we all struggle with that on various hurts. But it's probably the optimum place to reach or strive towards.

I think the best way of reducing suicide is by improving access to services and treatments, raising understanding and tackling the cultural/social/economic and health factors that feed into suicide rates. Lots of prayers and compassion for those are suffering and or are survivors of suicide. Also prayers and light for those who do commit suicide and for their loved ones left behind to handle the aftermath of the loss.

[CatherineM]

The statistic on suicide for those with schizophrenia is 10% are dead within 10 years of first diagnosis. 40% attempt suicide. Their overall life expectancy is 25 years less than the rest of us. That is from a combination of the horrific side effects, and the difficulty in receiving adequate health care.

As an example, let's say you are an ER nurse. You've got a 50 year old schizophrenic, over weight and diabetic from his meds. He's got shortness of breath and chest pain. You are in charge of getting him to sign a permission slip to have an angiogram and possibly have a stent implanted. You are dealing with someone who is afraid the government is going to implant a tracking chip in his body. How are you going to talk him into letting you insert a catheter into his body? Isn't a stent just a small antennae?

There are more ways to kill yourself than hanging if you have a mental illness. A friend of my husband refused to see a doctor when he had an obvious cancerous growth on his face. By the time he went, it was terminal. He died young, but was grateful to die sane.

[Marie-Therese]

I'm...embarrassed.

 

I'm embarrassed at the utter lack of charity, of feeling, of empathy and sympathy from people who profess to believe and live the mercy and grace of Christ.  I'm embarrassed, and angry, at the self-entitlement that some people feel they can wave around like flags in other people's faces because they think their opinion is just so, so important.  Obviously my personal anecdote is more correct than your personal anecdote, right?  

 

Edit:  post continued in next because somehow I hit post before I even got finished typing.

 

 

Edited August 14, 2014 by Marie-Therese

[Kia ora]

reading this thread has thrown me more into confusion than anything.

 

to me, suffering is inexplicable and maybe even uncommunicable. it's something that everyone owns for themselves. suffering cannot be explained away as god forbid, a punishment from god or a weakness of the will or a personal fault or a disease. sure depression is a disease and it may even be some kind of test from god, but explanations don't make it go away. it doesn't change the experience that depression is a soul-sucking thing that i wouldn't wish on my worst worst enemy.

 

this is why i really despise theodicies. great, you've 'defended' god by justifying suffering. but there are still people in pain. they're not going away because you've played god's lawyer. their suffering is still real, no matter how 'just' the suffering is.
 

the most important thing i've gotten out of staring into the blackness and backing away from it, from inexplicable evil, is to turn more to the good. look to your loved ones.

Edited August 14, 2014 by Kia ora

[blazeingstar]

I'm...embarrassed.

 

I'm embarrassed at the utter lack of charity, of feeling, of empathy and sympathy from people who profess to believe and live the mercy and grace of Christ.  I'm embarrassed, and angry, at the self-entitlement that some people feel they can wave around like flags in other people's faces because they think their opinion is just so, so important.  Obviously my personal anecdote is more correct than your personal anecdote, right?  

 

Edit:  post continued in next because somehow I hit post before I even got finished typing.

 

 

Well there's a new title for me.  Shame of Phatmass.

 

So glad to see I'm doing my job.

 

Really now people.

 

Again, if you don't like me, raise the pitchforks, drive me out, complain to dUST and have me banned.

 

Kthanks.

[Anastasia13]

Selfish; (adjective). 1. Concerned primarily with one's own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others.

Pretty plain. They are caught up in their own pain, seeking release or escape from it. Thoughts or consideration of the pain your suicide causes others, may not be considered or valued sufficient to keep you on the bridge. Some may wish to punish others with the pain of guilt in driving to suicide.

 

My understanding on suicide is that sometimes thoughts of pain that suicide causes others cannot be understood in the disordered mind of depression.

 

to each of you who have posted here of your own struggles and to those who are reading this who won't post their struggles (or can't): You are loved. You are wanted. I am praying for each of you, by name if I know it. Know that you aren't alone. Please get help if you need it. If you need to talk to someone, please call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-TALK. 

 

If you know you are in pain and can't deal with it, but you reach out to something like this to help you, can't that also be considered acting primarily in one's own benefits, welfare, etc.? Or if one does that so that they don't have to deal with people begging him/her until there is an opportunity to end things?

 

We are told to esteem others, but scripture also says to love others as yourself. I wonder if maybe we are to put others as more important but that shouldn't take away from the kindness we are to show ourselves?

 

If all you see comes to from your own pain and you cannot see how to really love others until you deal with the pain, is the problem the pain or the lack of love?

 

Suicide is a selfish choice, but that doesn't mean the person who committed it was selfish-sometimes just blinded by sickness and pain.

 

Just some thoughts.

Edited August 14, 2014 by Light and Truth

[Aloysius]

really now.  "if you disagree with me so much, why don't you ask for me to be banned?" is just ridiculous.

[Anastasia13]

really now.  "if you disagree with me so much, why don't you ask for me to be banned?" is just ridiculous.

Forum suicide is perfectly loving, but if you can't get someone to help you, it just looks hypocritical?

[blazeingstar]

really now.  "if you disagree with me so much, why don't you ask for me to be banned?" is just ridiculous.

 

I'm just stating the facts.  I've gotten a lot of ire, and a lot of people saying that I'm delusional, cruel, a shame to Catholicism, Christianity, Phatmass.

 

So I ask them, if they truly believe that I am as evil and as horrible as they are making me out to be, please do the church and PM a favor and ask for me to be banned.

 

This is, in hopes, that they will realize their own stubborn cruelty.  If not, and if I'm so hated, then I will know I'm not welcome.

 

Until then, they will need to deal with the fact that I have a strong, opposing opinion that is rooted in fact (lillabett's sourced).

[Marie-Therese]

Every single person has experience with pain and suffering.  We all have ways to cope with it, some better than others.  But to willfully call names at someone who is no longer able to defend themselves, and to cause further pain to that person's family in the process by casting aspersions on the person they love who is now gone...that's just unacceptable.

 

It doesn't matter if you think suicide is selfish.  Really.  It does not matter at all.  What matters is that a human being, a child of God, was so embroiled in illness that they made a terrible choice.  Their soul needs prayers.  Their family needs compassion.  The VALUE of that person deserves to be celebrated.  Should the beauty of a human being then be totally disregarded due to their manner of death?  Pretend they didn't exist?  

 

I've lost family members to suicide.  I've lost friends to suicide.  I've battled with serious depression, significant enough to require medication.  I understand the battle for your very soul against the darkness that just does not seem to have any end.  People need compassion, they need respect.  What they absolutely don't need is some internet blowhard telling them all about how terrible they are.

 

People loved Robin Williams, and his work meant something to people.  Celebrating his life is not in any way celebrating his manner of death.  

 

 

 

 

Well there's a new title for me.  Shame of Phatmass.

 

So glad to see I'm doing my job.

 

Really now people.

 

Again, if you don't like me, raise the pitchforks, drive me out, complain to dUST and have me banned.

 

Kthanks.

 

You're full of yourself.  Don't post something controversial in the Debate Table, have people tell you you're wrong (and then detail why), and then get all huffy like someone pissed in your cornflakes.  I'm doing my part by publicly calling you out for being profoundly douchbaggy.

[Anastasia13]

I'm just stating the facts.  I've gotten a lot of ire, and a lot of people saying that I'm delusional, cruel, a shame to Catholicism, Christianity, Phatmass.

 

So I ask them, if they truly believe that I am as evil and as horrible as they are making me out to be, please do the church and PM a favor and ask for me to be banned.

 

This is, in hopes, that they will realize their own stubborn cruelty.  If not, and if I'm so hated, then I will know I'm not welcome.

 

Until then, they will need to deal with the fact that I have a strong, opposing opinion that is rooted in fact (lillabett's sourced).

i think people would love to deal with your strong opinions, and sometimes it's healthy. There are a few times that you come off just closed off to what people have to say that opposes them. I think that if you would be more effective if you did more to acknowledge the other view, then show people how their point doesn't necessarily refute your case or how you come to an opposing point.

 

For example, in this post, you seemed a little unwilling to consider the pain people are in. http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/135264-im-sorry-robin-williams-suicide-is-selfish/?p=2695383 Now if you were to demonstrate how in the midst of that pain, suicide was still a selfish choice, it lends more credibility to your argument rather than making you seem closed minded and unwilling to consider the feelings of others. You may well have considered the pain confronting suicidal people, but we don't see that.

 

A great debate has that kind of interchange of ideas that helps people see things from another angle. Really show us what you got, k?

Edited August 14, 2014 by Light and Truth

[blazeingstar]

i think people would love to deal with your strong opinions, and sometimes it's healthy. There are a few times that you come off just closed off to what people have to say that opposes them. I think that if you would be more effective if you did more to acknowledge the other view, then show people how their point doesn't necessarily refute your case or how you come to an opposing point.

 

For example, in this post, you seemed a little unwilling to consider the pain people are in. http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/135264-im-sorry-robin-williams-suicide-is-selfish/?p=2695383 Now if you were to demonstrate how in the midst of that pain, suicide was still a selfish choice, it lends more credibility to your argument rather than making you seem closed minded and unwilling to consider the feelings of others. You may well have considered the pain confronting suicidal people, but we don't see that. A great debate has that kind of interchange of ideas that helps people see things from another angle. Really show us what you got, not just what you conclude, k?

 

 

You know what?

 

This is MY way of handling it.  This is my of dealing with someone.  And in my case, my way, has worked.

 

So like I said in my first post.  If you odn't like it go kick rocks without socks.

[Aloysius]

yes many people are disgusted with your position.  but phatmass doesn't ban people for having bad opinions.  your appeal to "banning" is ridiculous.  people strongly disagree with you, many people think that the way you are saying things is harmful and is the kind of thing that is a trigger for people with depression and suicidal thoughts.

 

I understand it's hard to express and defend unpopular opinions on a phorum when the majority come out against you in strong disagreement.  but "if you think my opinion is so bad why don't you just ask dUSt to ban me"... I mean seriously?  could that be any more asinine?

 

for my part, I think the opinion you're expressing is a misguided attempt to mitigate the trigger of contagion suicide... one that has a tendency to trigger the very contagion you hope to avoid.  I also think it reflects the "anger" stage of the grieving process, and that it is far too caught up in that anger but it is ultimately harmful to others.  I do sincerely apologize for telling you my opinion on your position rather than just asking dUSt to ban you, though.

[Anastasia13]

You know what?

 

This is MY way of handling it.  This is my of dealing with someone.  And in my case, my way, has worked.

 

So like I said in my first post.  If you odn't like it go kick rocks without socks.

How many people have you convinced of your view in this thread? The majority? Doesn't seem like much to me.

 

I just hoped you would be able to be more convincing if you had some good ideas. The best ideas are worthless if they cannot be communicated or acted on. If communicating yours here isn't important to you...

Edited August 14, 2014 by Light and Truth

[Lilllabettt]

 

It doesn't matter if you think suicide is selfish.  Really.  It does not matter at all.  What matters is that a human being, a child of God, was so embroiled in illness that they made a terrible choice.  Their soul needs prayers.  Their family needs compassion.  The VALUE of that person deserves to be celebrated.  Should the beauty of a human being then be totally disregarded due to their manner of death?  Pretend they didn't exist?  

[...]

People loved Robin Williams, and his work meant something to people.  Celebrating his life is not in any way celebrating his manner of death.  

 

 

Maybe the prudent thing is to limit the "celebration" to that which usually attends the death a person who has passed naturally. That is not what happens, usually, when someone dies tragically, especially if they are young. Maybe because it is sadder, and the need for catharsis is stronger. 

 

College students who die naturally are few, but I knew of a couple over the course of my undergraduate/graduate studies. There were no candelight vigils for these people. They had obituaries, but their deaths did not constitute media events in the student newspaper. 

 

Robin Williams had serious heart problems. If he'd died from a heart attack, there would no doubt have been an outpouring of appreciation for his life and work. But would it have reached this level if he had died naturally and not in a suicide? I have serious doubts. And that, I think, is a sticky wicket. 

 

You know, we have similar discussions in the aftermath of mass shootings. How much coverage do we give the details of the life of the perpetrator? * How many mass murderers cite an expectation that "everyone will know my name" as a motive?

 

*please note that I in no way intend to draw a moral equivalency between suicide victims and mass murderers.