I'm Sorry, Robin Williams, Suicide Is Selfish

[Aloysius]

Hasan, suicide contagion is a sociological phenomenon, not a neurological one.  one suicide tends to lead others who have already been suffering with suicidal thoughts towards acting them out.  of course it is most likely that those people had depression or suicidal thoughts before the suicide, and thus suicide contagion is really just a temporal clustering of suicides that might otherwise have ended up occurring over a wider span of time.  there is no way of knowing whether a suicide would or would not have occurred if someone who did a copycat suicide had never encountered the person they copycatted... 

[Anomaly]

Selfish; (adjective). 1. Concerned primarily with one's own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others.

Pretty plain. They are caught up in their own pain, seeking release or escape from it. Thoughts or consideration of the pain your suicide causes others, may not be considered or valued sufficient to keep you on the bridge. Some may wish to punish others with the pain of guilt in driving to suicide.

Edited August 13, 2014 by Anomaly

[PhuturePriest]

Hasan, suicide contagion is a sociological phenomenon, not a neurological one.  one suicide tends to lead others who have already been suffering with suicidal thoughts towards acting them out.  of course it is most likely that those people had depression or suicidal thoughts before the suicide, and thus suicide contagion is really just a temporal clustering of suicides that might otherwise have ended up occurring over a wider span of time.  there is no way of knowing whether a suicide would or would not have occurred if someone who did a copycat suicide had never encountered the person they copycatted... 

 

If it does indeed cause people to commit suicide, it makes sense. But as you say, those people were already depressed, and another person killing himself probably acts as a trigger for others. However, I don't think this should stop us from talking about those who have killed themselves and mourning their loss. We should of course not say their act was brave, but call it what it was: An unfortunate and wrong choice that was made by clouded judgment.

[Aloysius]

the objection is to the attribution of volition and agency in the accusation that an individual's action was "selfish", as the term "selfish" is a value judgment.  one does not say that a black hole is selfish for sucking in light, one would not say that a baby is selfish (unless one was being slightly facetious), or that someone in a coma was selfish... the general point is that depression compromises the will, and as such blanket statements of judgment with terms that imply culpability are irresponsible.

[4588686]

Hasan, suicide contagion is a sociological phenomenon, not a neurological one.  one suicide tends to lead others who have already been suffering with suicidal thoughts towards acting them out.  of course it is most likely that those people had depression or suicidal thoughts before the suicide, and thus suicide contagion is really just a temporal clustering of suicides that might otherwise have ended up occurring over a wider span of time.

 

 

Wouldn't it be both?  The aggregate, the pattern is a sociological phenomena, sure, however the effect on the individual is ultimately neurological, right?  Presumably the clustering is not random, but certain individuals in a neurological/psychological context are the ones who are copying.  

 

That would be my assumption but definitely not my area.  So completely open to be wrong.  

[CrossCuT]

Well I think an ordinary funeral is perfectly reasonable. Of course everyone has a human right to be buried. Large scale coverage of the funeral on TV and in newspapers -- probably unwise. 

 

The human reaction is to recoil from the idea of this- get that, totally. How can a public memorial hurt? What could be more harmless and helpful and well-intended than a public prayer vigil, for goodness sakes. But the reality is these have been shown to lead to more death, more suicide. We have to look to the living, regardless of what suicide victims "deserve." I believe suicide victims themselves would want this.

 

It's sad, isn't it. Seems terribly unfair. Because there couldn't be opposition to such attention being paid to a life that was tragically cut short in any other way. But maybe that is another thing lost in suicide.

 

Im not really aware of average people who committed suicide who gets media attention. I think the large scale reaction to Robin Williams was a result of his fame and not because people wanted to glorify the method of his passing. 

[blazeingstar]

blazeing, do you think ranting against the "selfishness" of those who commit suicide will somehow make it less contagious, or more?

 

Uhmm wow you're really thick arent you.

 

Why would I do something to encourage more suicide?

 

I do think that the articles online popping up on facebook (that I've blocked) are going to cause cluster type suicides....especally the meme of the genie.

[porziuncola]

I'm hesitant to post this, but I want to add to what selah and others have said about the absence of rational decision making that is often at play in cases of suicide. About two years ago, a few days after Christmas, I tried to kill myself, and very nearly did. It was the consequence of a sense of a constantly growing sense of hopelessness, and despair, and being convinced that I was a burden on everyone around me and that I had absolutely nothing to offer anyone. I literally could not see ANY positive thing that came out of my being alive, for myself, or for anyone else for that matter.

I tried to reach out to friends, they were either busy, or oblivious to the fact that I was trying to reach out for help. I couldn't articulate how critical my situation was because 1) for me it didn't seem critical, it was my everyday life, it had become normal to feel hopeless and miserable and empty. 2) I didn't want to burden my friends and family. 3) I couldn't explain what was wrong, because I really wasn't sure.

I tried to call a suicide hotline that night. The person I was talking to told me I wasn't making sense and she couldn't understand me through my crying, so to call back later if I needed to. So I was even a burden on a hotline operator!

I hated being a burden on other people, and I couldn't foresee any time in the future when I would not be a burden. If people did tell me I was a burden, I was absolutely convinced they were lying to me, and just wouldn't admit it. Everyone was happy! It was christmastime! I should be happy! Why couldn't I make myself happier? It would be better if everyone was just rid of me. Why should they have to put up with someone constantly, inexplicably miserable and useless?

I was not making a choice the way I make choices when I'm mentally stable. So I overdosed on prescription medications, and ended up in the ER where finally someone else was able to start making decisions that I was clearly not capable of at the time. I wasn't being selfish, or being brave. That would imply that I knew there were other options, if I thought there was another option, I sure as hell would've taken it over trying to kill myself.

Yes, Robin Williams had money for treatment. He'd also already undergone a lot of it. Mental health problems aren't necessarily resolved by the amount of money you throw at them, because it's still difficult to find medication that works, and sometimes the medications themselves exacerbate the problem.

People are not glorifying Robin Williams suicide, give me a break. Most people are lamenting that someone so loved and that has brought so much happiness and then there have been a few asinine articles like Matt Walsh's implying that killing oneself is a decision akin to deciding which shoe to tie first.

Suicide isn't brave, and it isn't selfish. Because to be brave, or to be selfish, you have to consciously, willfully choose one action over another, and the mind of someone clouded by severe depression isn't capable of making that kind of rational decision between different actions. Also, just because suicide itself isn't brave doesn't negate what may add up to many, many acts of bravery prior to it... As such people brave people can and sometimes do commit suicide, even if their final act is not.

[CrossCuT]

Wow I'm not going to tell you to "buck up"

 

I'm saying that what was done, and how it is being treated IS selfish because it is contageous.  His children are now 3 to 10 times more likely than the general population to kill themselves.

 

For many people, the mind isn't working properly.  But that dosn't mean that after the fact its ok to pretend everythigns ok and to create meme's and articles about how unselfish...and even brave...it is.  I find that disgusting.

 

You have your own issues, and your belitting me and semi machostic form of  humor has no affect on me.

 

To say "wahh" you made me hurt also has no affect on me.  Am I sorry you're in pain?  Sure, but I'm also sorry that my friend did kill herself 10 years after her father, 20 years after her godfather and in turn was followed by several freinds.

 

I'm also sorry for the higschool clusters, the college clusters, the workplace clusters.  Snoballs start with one flake of snow.

 

And its completely unecessary.

 

 

Hasan, suicide contagion is a sociological phenomenon, not a neurological one.  one suicide tends to lead others who have already been suffering with suicidal thoughts towards acting them out.  of course it is most likely that those people had depression or suicidal thoughts before the suicide, and thus suicide contagion is really just a temporal clustering of suicides that might otherwise have ended up occurring over a wider span of time.  there is no way of knowing whether a suicide would or would not have occurred if someone who did a copycat suicide had never encountered the person they copycatted... 

 

 

I feel like in Blazeys case where people in the same family committed suicide it would be more because of biological inheritance of mental illness and not so much that depression is a virus you can catch. You have to have a predisposition to it. 

[Lilllabettt]

 

The article Lillabet posted does not say not to have any public showing of grief or memorialization, but to excercise caution when doing so, and to couple it with strong messages of suicide prevention resources.  

 

 

Right, I think putting a stopper in the grieving process is unhealthy. At the same time I think its a fairly well established reality that there is a point where information about the deceased, in combination with knowledge about the manner of their death, becomes deleterious.

 

My opinion is that the bar where memorializing should stop is far lower than most people are comfortable admitting. 

 

The question for schools especially to ask themselves is: What is the level of public acknowledgment required for our community to process healthfully? To use the Supreme Court's calculation to determine negligence, at what point does the likelihood of risk x severity of risk become greater than the benefit derived by public memorializing?

[blazeingstar]

I feel like in Blazeys case where people in the same family committed suicide it would be more because of biological inheritance of mental illness and not so much that depression is a virus you can catch. You have to have a predisposition to it. 

 

she wasn't biologically related to her godfather or her boyfriend.

[Aloysius]

Hasan, well it would be both in the sense that everything that's sociological is also neurological, interplay of individual psyches and social factors, of course.  but generally I don't think suicide contagion would rightfully be called "neurological" particularly... I'm pretty sure any and all evidence for the existence of suicide "contagion" is generally sociological in nature...  
 

Uhmm wow you're really thick arent you.

 

Why would I do something to encourage more suicide?

 

I do think that the articles online popping up on facebook (that I've blocked) are going to cause cluster type suicides....especally the meme of the genie.

 

well as I said, I believe your shaming of suicide actually acts as a trigger that could cause more suicides, based upon the way depression and suicidal thoughts actually function psychologically.  I honestly think the statements you are making are spreading the kinds of triggers that are actually at play in the complex way in which clusters of suicides tend to happen.  It is a highly simplistic and false paradigm to assume it is just because of some desire for the kind of attention or memorialization that someone who has committed suicide has done, it is much more clear that the fact of a suicide happening triggers increased hopelessness and self loathing, and that statements about how "selfish" suicide are actually in themselves further triggers in that regard.

[CrossCuT]

[superblue]

I am probably going to have another roast beef samich with cheddar cheese for dinner.

[Anomaly]

statements about how "selfish" suicide are actually in themselves further triggers in that regard.

For some, pointing out that your suicide can have significant negative effect on others may help them realize others care for them, you matter, and your death and absence from others life would cause pain that they had not considered or put in the equation "Why should I live another hour?".