I'm Sorry, Robin Williams, Suicide Is Selfish

[Lilllabettt]

It should be noted that this advice does not say one should shame the one who committed the suicide.  What it seems to indicate is that grief should be expressed in a way that draws attention to suicide prevention (I have seen this all over the memorials to Robin Williams being posted around the internet)... and I'm sorry, but declaring suicide as "selfish" does absolutely nothing for suicide prevention and I stand by my post that I think it exacerbates the problems of depression and suicidal thoughts.  Thoughts that your suicidal thoughts or depression are somehow your fault, that you should just be able to handle it better and if only you could just pick yourself up, those thoughts pop up and keep people spiraling into depression... like I said, like fighting quicksand, or a rip-tide, those are the thoughts that make it seem impossible to escape.  The first stepping stone towards getting out is to acknowledge that it's not your fault, that people love you, and to get professional help.  The more you blame yourself for your depression, the harder it is to escape it.

 

And when people talk about how selfish someone was for their suicide, it does nothing but make someone with suicidal thoughts blame themselves more.

 

 

I think the general point of the article was that suicide victims should not be memorialized in a public way. I agree it is unproductive to call suicide victims selfish -- but I think the OP represents a reaction to the more typical human response to suicide - public expressions of love and remembrance of the deceased. That this is harmful and unproductive. And I think I agree. Probably such things should be limited to expressions of support for the family, rather than reflections about how wonderful and loved the deceased was/is. 

 

 It seems especially sad that individuals who feel so unloved and unacknowledged in their lives should pass away in continued obscurity --- but it is probably what's best for the people who survive. 

[CrossCuT]

I think the general point of the article was that suicide victims should not be memorialized in a public way. I agree it is unproductive to call suicide victims selfish -- but I think the OP represents a reaction to the more typical human response to suicide - public expressions of love and remembrance of the deceased. That this is harmful and unproductive. And I think I agree. Probably such things should be limited to expressions of support for the family, rather than reflections about how wonderful and loved the deceased was/is. 

 

 It seems especially sad that individuals who feel so unloved and unacknowledged in their lives should pass away in continued obscurity --- but it is probably what's best for the people who survive. 

 

Not memorialized in a public way? How public are you talking? Like Robin Williams A list actor public? Or public funeral public?

 

I dont think people who suffered from depression and committed suicide are in any way less deserving of public remorse and remembrance. I dont know who anyone who committed suicide is in any way less deserving of public expressions of love. 

[PhuturePriest]

Alright.  Here's something you might want to consider.  When a lot of people of diverse backgrounds and points of view are all noting that you are making an arse of yourself then that is often a sign that you are wrong.  

 

But keep on truckin'

 

Even I think she's making an arse out of herself, and I'm the king of saying stupid things.

[blazeingstar]

I think the general point of the article was that suicide victims should not be memorialized in a public way. I agree it is unproductive to call suicide victims selfish -- but I think the OP represents a reaction to the more typical human response to suicide - public expressions of love and remembrance of the deceased. That this is harmful and unproductive. And I think I agree. Probably such things should be limited to expressions of support for the family, rather than reflections about how wonderful and loved the deceased was/is. 

 

 It seems especially sad that individuals who feel so unloved and unacknowledged in their lives should pass away in continued obscurity --- but it is probably what's best for the people who survive. 

 

Thanks Lillabet, I think that's more of the opinion I was intending to convey....

 

....I mean, rolling stone was crucified (as was right) for putting the boston bomber's photo on their cover.  Yet evidence shows that this younger brother was probably both mentally ill and controlled by his older sadistic brother. 

 

Many of the Memes  and blog posts are written in a very dangerous fasion.  And many of those who do copy cat will not have the luxary of having a cute disney cartoon slogan on every facebook wall.

[blazeingstar]

Not memorialized in a public way? How public are you talking? Like Robin Williams A list actor public? Or public funeral public?

 

I dont think people who suffered from depression and committed suicide are in any way less deserving of public remorse and remembrance. I dont know who anyone who committed suicide is in any way less deserving of public expressions of love. 

 

Like it or not those expressions of love, however, can be dangerous to others.  It dosn't make the person who comitted suicide less deserving of love, but the awareness of the harm such acts create should cause such memorials to be muted.

[Lilllabettt]

Not memorialized in a public way? How public are you talking? Like Robin Williams A list actor public? Or public funeral public?

 

I dont think people who suffered from depression and committed suicide are in any way less deserving of public remorse and remembrance. I dont know who anyone who committed suicide is in any way less deserving of public expressions of love. 

 

 

Well I think an ordinary funeral is perfectly reasonable. Of course everyone has a human right to be buried. Large scale coverage of the funeral on TV and in newspapers -- probably unwise. 

 

The human reaction is to recoil from the idea of this- get that, totally. How can a public memorial hurt? What could be more harmless and helpful and well-intended than a public prayer vigil, for goodness sakes. But the reality is these have been shown to lead to more death, more suicide. We have to look to the living, regardless of what suicide victims "deserve." I believe suicide victims themselves would want this.

 

It's sad, isn't it. Seems terribly unfair. Because there couldn't be opposition to such attention being paid to a life that was tragically cut short in any other way. But maybe that is another thing lost in suicide.

[PhuturePriest]

Blazeingstar, I want to personally thank you for this thread. Really, I do. Oftentimes I'll often reflect back and think on incredibly stupid threads I've made and cringe, and I think "Wow, I wish I had never made that thread and said those things." But now, thanks to you, I have the consolation of "At least I didn't make a total ass out of myself by shaming the dead and showing complete ignorance towards suicide!"

 

Thank you from the deepest depths of my heart.

 

Now that I have that out of the way, I've been depressed. I've been really sad. I've spent entire nights crying in my bed because I felt so overwhelmed and disgusted with myself, and I felt so incredibly worthless. I even thought about suicide once, but then my mind snapped back and I realized with horror what I was thinking of, and I cried even harder. Don't tell me that in that mental state if I had killed myself I would have been selfish. The thought of it being selfish never even occurred to me. I had simple logic: I'm in constant pain, I'm in it every day, and if I die, I won't feel it anymore. We of course know that that logic is terribly flawed, but at the time, I didn't see it that way. If I were to kill myself right now, that would be selfish. But that's because I'm in a perfect state of mind and properly understand right from wrong.

 

Now, I know you'll say croutons like "You should have just told yourself to buck up." But that's not how a troubled mind works, and this is what you are struggling to comprehend. Stop imagining yourself doing it, because your mind is sound. Depressed people do not have sound minds. They are sick, and they need to get help. Only medication and therapy can help them, because the chemicals in their brain are out of whack. Trust me, if they could choose to no longer be depressed, they would be.

 

Now, stop being an arse portal. You're ruining my reputation of making the worst threads on Phatmass.

[Anomaly]

If a Mediator of Meh dosn't like it they can block me or ban me. Until then, everyone else will just have to deal with my opinion.

To indicate I have my opinion because I don't have any skin in the game is just false. This is my opinion because I've been affected.

I agree with Blazingstar that suicide has a selfish aspect. It is debatable or even unknowable how aware of the selfishish nature the suicidal person may be, or even what their ability is to fully consider the effect of their suicide would be on others. There are many motives for suicide.

[4588686]

Given the contagious nature of suicide, I disagree. 

 

 

That is completely irrelevant. 

[blazeingstar]

Blazeingstar, I want to personally thank you for this thread. Really, I do. Oftentimes I'll often reflect back and think on incredibly stupid threads I've made and cringe, and I think "Wow, I wish I had never made that thread and said those things." But now, thanks to you, I have the consolation of "At least I didn't make a total ass out of myself by shaming the dead and showing complete ignorance towards suicide!"

 

Thank you from the deepest depths of my heart.

 

Now that I have that out of the way, I've been depressed. I've been really sad. I've spent entire nights crying in my bed because I felt so overwhelmed and disgusted with myself, and I felt so incredibly worthless. I even thought about suicide once, but then my mind snapped back and I realized with horror what I was thinking of, and I cried even harder. Don't tell me that in that mental state if I had killed myself I would have been selfish. The thought of it being selfish never even occurred to me. I had simple logic: I'm in constant pain, I'm in it every day, and if I die, I won't feel it anymore. We of course know that that logic is terribly flawed, but at the time, I didn't see it that way. If I were to kill myself right now, that would be selfish. But that's because I'm in a perfect state of mind and properly understand right from wrong.

 

Now, I know you'll say croutons like "You should have just told yourself to buck up." But that's not how a troubled mind works, and this is what you are struggling to comprehend. Stop imagining yourself doing it, because your mind is sound. Depressed people do not have sound minds. They are sick, and they need to get help. Only medication and therapy can help them, because the chemicals in their brain are out of whack. Trust me, if they could choose to no longer be depressed, they would be.

 

Now, stop being an arse portal. You're ruining my reputation of making the worst threads on Phatmass.

 

Wow I'm not going to tell you to "buck up"

 

I'm saying that what was done, and how it is being treated IS selfish because it is contageous.  His children are now 3 to 10 times more likely than the general population to kill themselves.

 

For many people, the mind isn't working properly.  But that dosn't mean that after the fact its ok to pretend everythigns ok and to create meme's and articles about how unselfish...and even brave...it is.  I find that disgusting.

 

You have your own issues, and your belitting me and semi machostic form of  humor has no affect on me.

 

To say "wahh" you made me hurt also has no affect on me.  Am I sorry you're in pain?  Sure, but I'm also sorry that my friend did kill herself 10 years after her father, 20 years after her godfather and in turn was followed by several freinds.

 

I'm also sorry for the higschool clusters, the college clusters, the workplace clusters.  Snoballs start with one flake of snow.

 

And its completely unecessary.

[blazeingstar]

That is completely irrelevant. 

 

Irrelevant how?  That's the whole REASON I started this thread.  My whole reason why I believe suicide is selfish is because it is contageous.  Not becuase it blocks traffic, not becuase it's a mess to clean up, not becuase it leaves behind orphans.

 

But becuase it leaves behind people who will also go on to block traffic by taking their own lives, more brains to whipe off the cealing and orphans who end up doing the same thing themselves.

[Aloysius]

if the "selfish" aspect were withdrawn, there would be a valid discussion to be had in general regarding the level of attention here... although the fact is he is getting attention not because of his suicide, but because he's an A list celebrity who died, and all of the same memes would have been posted if he had had a heart attack or got hit by a bus... there's no getting around it--there will be attention to memorializing his life in a very public way.  The "selfish" point, however, is something that exacerbates the contagion of suicide just as much, I think even more in many ways, as it is the kind of thing that feeds the spiral of despair.

 

The article Lillabet posted does not say not to have any public showing of grief or memorialization, but to excercise caution when doing so, and to couple it with strong messages of suicide prevention resources.  Moreover, the point made about clusters is especially important, which is why the examples discussed were high schools--the high concentration of people in the age-range that is most at risk for depression or suicide makes the constant attention and memorialization of someone especially precarious.  a flooding of real affection coupled with real resources and outreach for suicide prevention in the wake of a suicide is a good thing.  I think the reason suicide contagion happens is because of a good deal of factors in the things that are brought up by the mere knowledge that someone else has committed suicide, and that hiding that from public view and not memorializing them does not in any way prevent that contagion.  Moreover, again I repeat, it seems clear to me that shaming the person who committed the suicide will exacerbate the contagion. 

[Aloysius]

blazeing, do you think ranting against the "selfishness" of those who commit suicide will somehow make it less contagious, or more?

[4588686]

Irrelevant how?  That's the whole REASON I started this thread.  My whole reason why I believe suicide is selfish is because it is contageous.  Not becuase it blocks traffic, not becuase it's a mess to clean up, not becuase it leaves behind orphans.

 

But becuase it leaves behind people who will also go on to block traffic by taking their own lives, more brains to whipe off the cealing and orphans who end up doing the same thing themselves.

 

 

Right.  So you are positing a neurological claim, that suicide is 'contagious'.  Maybe that is true and maybe it isn't.  That is a completely separate claim from casting aspersions on the individual who took their life while suffering from a mental illness by labeling their decision as selfish.  

[4588686]

I guess I'm missing the apparent flood of articles talking about how brave Robin Williams decision was.