I'm Sorry, Robin Williams, Suicide Is Selfish

[blazeingstar]

One problem I think people are having is overgeneralizing. Suicides are as different as the people who commit them.

 

Suicide requires overriding our self-preservation mechanisms. This is the most basic of all human instinct. The force required is formidable. I think it is doubtful that many people under that kind of pressure are really capable of making a free choice.That said, I know people who have left notes indicating that they are killing themselves for spite.

 

Many, many people commit suicide as a spur of the moment decision - as a result of an abrupt slip in processing like what Selah describes.Other people plan it well in advance; their suicide being a product of (what seems to them) a carefully considered "rational" deliberation.

 

I get what the OP's objection is to all the sympathy and attention Robin Williams is getting. Isolated, alienated people, also members of the depressed and suicidal club, long for that kind of acknowledgment. It is a basic human need, they have been starved of it, and now they see someone getting it in abundance. It really can give vulnerable people a shove.

 

During my freshman year someone jumped out of a window in my dorm. We had a vigil. Cue another person jumping out of a dorm. We had a vigil. Cue another and another. The University refused to allow vigils after that, because an expert team they brought in said they contributed to the development of a suicide cluster. 

 

Suicide is the ultimate defeat. You don't need a religious perspective to understand that. But I have seen things said about Robin Williams ("genie, now you are free") that are well meaning but are not productive from a public health perspective. 

 

 

Yeah, many of the memes are horrible.  They are a glorification.  Its not direct, but it's insidieous

 

 

I think the reason why people are paying so much attention to him is that he was a well known and much beloved actor whose entire career was based on making people smile and laugh. It is such a shock that someone who could bring so much joy to the world be so depressed as to do this to himself. He touched so many lives that we can not help but express our sorrow for this loss.

 

As to the articles that you say glorify his suicide, I am afraid I have not seen any.

 

As stated above its not direct, its subtle.

 

 

Blaze- you are going through the same assault I went through when I called Pope Benedict a quitter and said I was disgusted. You are entitled to your opinion even if no one agrees with you.

You are right about how suicides can be contagious. That's not opinion, that's documented. There will be people who kill themselves because of Williams' death. Some will give up the fight. Some will see the outpouring of grief for him and want that for themselves. Some will think that if he couldn't fight it, what hope do I have?

I pray for his family. They will not only be full of grief, but guilt that they didn't prevent it. I pray for his soul. Mostly I pray that this isn't turned into a rallying call for those who want to legalize suicide for the mentally ill.

Selah- I'm really glad you survived your dark night.

 

Thanks for the back up Catherine

 

Youre delusional. I never said you dont have a right to an opinion, I just said that your opinion smells of elderberries and you should feel bad.

 

Name calling and saying I should feel bad, thats just nasty.

Edited August 13, 2014 by blazeingstar

[Lilllabettt]

http://citizensvoice.com/news/suicide-s-cluster-effect-1.1380882

 

 

Vigils - like the ones held in Nanticoke for Delos Santos and in Pittston for Montagna and Baker - can appear to a fragile mind like overdue appreciation for a neglected life, Zenere said. News coverage of the memorials and remembrances can exacerbate the effect, Zenere said, remembering a headline in the Miami Herald in the mid-1990s that described a double suicide as "Romeo and Juliet revisited."

 

"When there is a suicide by a youth, that kind of lays down some modeling for other students that are vulnerable to that message that, 'I did this and look at the attention I'm getting,' or 'I did this, and I'm no longer in my pain,'" Zenere said. "You can see why others might be appealed to that message if they're in a lot of psychological distress."

 

The natural instinct after the death of a friend or a loved one is to grieve and mourn.

In the recent string of suicides, that grief and mourning has spilled across Facebook, into the hallways at school and in public forums like Patriot Square and the football field at Pittston Area.

Classmates of the fifth victim, the Hazleton freshman, wrote his initials or his name on their arms.

 

At the football game Friday at Pittston Area - coincidentally against Hazleton Area - flags were lowered to half-staff and the public address announcer asked for a moment of silence to honor the students lost from those schools.

Players on the Nanticoke Area team wore yellow ribbons, for suicide prevention, on their helmets.

 

Remembering victims of suicide can be precarious, particularly in the midst of a cluster, Zenere said.

"When it comes to memorializing losses due to suicide, we have to be very cautious," he said. "We don't want to glorify the event and bring undue attention to the cause of the death. What we want to do, appropriately, is of course give students a chance to grieve the loss because it's a loss no matter what kind, the other part is to prevent imitative suicide."

 

Instead of dwelling on a suicide, or memorializing the victim with plaques, T-shirts or Sharpie tattoos or dedicating the football team's next win in his or her name, experts have encouraged schools to focus on suicide prevention, identifying at-risk students and emphasizing life, Zenere and Gould said.

 

[4LoveofJMJ]

Since a debate cannot exist with attitudes like this, can we just close this thread for the sake of charity?

 

I do not see this going anywhere. 

 

Amen! Clearly this thread will go no where unless you agree with Balzingstar so I am done.

 

See ya!

[CrossCuT]

All right. You know what? I wasn't going to post anything, other than the one thing I did, mostly because I am triggering all over the beaver dam place right now, and I pray to God my father doesn't stumble onto Phatmass to find I posted, because he's still concerned for my well being, which , no poo, he should be.

 

Blazingstar. I am going to let you, and everyone on this forum in on a little secret.

 

I tried to kill myself last month.

 

I drove to the bridge and started to climb it Eventually police were called and I was taken to the hospital and evaluated. This all came after a series of things, one after another, piling up on top of me. Let me tell you about that morning. How do you think it went? Did I wake up one morning and say to myself, "golly gee, a swim in the river sounds amesome right about now"? Did I do what I did because I wanted to spite people?

 

No. To both. I wasn't thinking. Like, at all. My mind was a fog. I couldn't even hear myself think. I collapsed on the floor, crying hysterically, and called the suicide hotline. Nothing they said even made sense to me. Why? Because, my brain had shut off. Everything, including pain and warning sensors, shut off. 

 

I threw my phone at the wall, got in my car, parked in a drugstore parking lot, and just walked to the bridge. Everything was a fog. I wanted the pain to stop. I didn't even want to die. I just. wanted. it. to. stop. No logic could pierce through me. No rational ideas could get to me. Not even my own family could get through to me. 

 

In a way...I was already dead.

 

Then I was taken away to the hospital and sat in a room for hours on end. It wasn't until later in the day that my brain "woke up" and realized, oh croutons, I tried to kill myself. Up until that point, I probably would have tried it again. 

 

My point is...you cannot always bring logic into this. It's easy to call it selfish; but honestly, how can it be a selfish choice when we are incapable of even making simple decisions such as getting up in the morning? It's a choice in the same light as an allergic reaction is a choice. It's the result of a disease. No, no, don't hear me wrong; in no way am I glamorizing suicide. It's tragic, and I am saddened by this recent news of Robin Williams passing. Quite frankly, though, by the time he got to the point of hanging himself, he probably couldn't hear himself think. He lost his fight with this sickness. That calls for compassion. Those of us with depression and bipolar disorder are haunted; memories of things that happened three years ago will come back to us. You can say "it's distorted" until you are blue in the face, but again; depression isn't logical. It's just not. 

 

So I am going to share with you all something that Nash, a DJ on Radio Dead Air (look it up) said. This is what someone with depression needs to hear.

 

It's not your fault. 

 

It's not. This isn't you.

 

You aren't your illness.

 

You are a good, special, loving, kind, intelligent person.

 

And yes, get them help. It's gonna smell of elderberries, because the battle to getting better smells of elderberries. But at the end of the day...this sickness I have, you have...

 

It's no more your fault than having cancer is a cancer patient's fault.

 

Depression is not your fault. Bipolar disorder is not your fault.

Thank you for sharing this Selah. :console:

And as Im sure you know, the world is, thankfully, not filled with dolts like Blazingstar. Most people are a whole heck of a lot more respectful about the issue.

 

 

 

The reason I reacted to strongly to this thread is not because intelligent debates about mental illness are bad, its because Blazing star made this personal when she called out Robin Williams name. You dont know him, you dont know his pain, and you dont know what was happening in his life that triggered the resurgence of his illness. How dare you judge him in this way. He is dead.

He will never walk upon this earth again, he will never breath its air, he will never be able to sit here and defend himself against the ignorance that you are throwing in his direction. 

 

I do understand that his passing has triggered a lot of awarness of mental illness, but you were never interested in discussing the intricacies of mental illness...no. You were interested in spewing a thoughtless, insensitive, and plain out ignorant opinion on not only his personal struggle, but anyone who has EVER shared in that struggle.

 

I hope and pray to God that you never, ever, ever go through the pain Blazingstar that people who have severe depression go through; the people who contemplate suicide. Its an illness...not a physical one mind you, but an illness all the same. 

 

I mean, not only that but the man died two days ago. Can you show any respect? Can you allow people to mourn? Would you go to the funeral of someone who committed suicide and tell their family "Well they were just selfish you know..."  OF COURSE NOT! You know why? because its inappropriate. 

[beatitude]

I have every right to my feelings, CrossCut, and being nasty and saying I have some gall to post this isn't nice.

 

I have good reason to feel suicide is selfish.  The contagious factor is #1. 

 

You are making some serious leaps in logic when you call suicide 'contagious'. I have not seen any solid evidence that people who have lost someone to suicide are more likely to kill themselves, but it does occur to me that relatives/friends of a person who killed themselves may very well be suffering from the exact same circumstances that pushed the person into taking their life - an abusive home, for example. You're just assuming that people kill themselves because they know other people who have done so, when shared circumstances could be just as much at fault. The bottom line is that we can't know, and it is unloving and unhelpful to judge.

 

It's also not so easy to just 'get help'. As Lillabet pointed out, many suicidal people honestly believe that their loved ones would be better off without them - and others are so frightened of worrying their family that they don't approach a doctor or someone who could help them, but instead try to cope alone. That is a bad muddled choice, but it's not a selfish one.

 

I've worked in a psychiatric hospital with people who made multiple suicide attempts and a couple of my closest friends have also tried to take their lives. They are unwell, they are not selfish. And while you may well have every right to your feelings, you were obviously aware that they might be hurtful to some people (you do realise that someone who has tried suicide themselves might be reading your post?). Did it occur to you that it might be selfish of you to prioritise your right to have a public rant over the needs of people who are either disturbed and fragile, or supporting someone who is in that terrible position? And do you honestly think that letting a suicidal person know that you think they're selfish is going to magically make them walk away from the idea?

 

To be honest, the hardest thing about living with and supporting a suicidal friend was not the fear that one day I might come home and find her dead, but attitudes like the one you've shown. They put me off reaching out to other friends for comfort and encouragement, for fear of the reaction I might get, and if that is how I felt just as her friend then goodness knows what it was like for her. If you have been hurt by a friend or relative's suicide, then I'm sorry, but blaming them and getting angry at them for feeling as they did is not the answer.

[blazeingstar]

Thank you for sharing this Selah. :console:

And as Im sure you know, the world is, thankfully, not filled with dolts like Blazingstar. Most people are a whole heck of a lot more respectful about the issue.

 

 

 

The reason I reacted to strongly to this thread is not because intelligent debates about mental illness are bad, its because Blazing star made this personal when she called out Robin Williams name. You dont know him, you dont know his pain, and you dont know what was happening in his life that triggered the resurgence of his illness. How dare you judge him in this way. He is dead.

He will never walk upon this earth again, he will never breath its air, he will never be able to sit here and defend himself against the ignorance that you are throwing in his direction. 

 

I do understand that his passing has triggered a lot of awarness of mental illness, but you were never interested in discussing the intricacies of mental illness...no. You were interested in spewing a thoughtless, insensitive, and plain out ignorant opinion on not only his personal struggle, but anyone who has EVER shared in that struggle.

 

I hope and pray to God that you never, ever, ever go through the pain Blazingstar that people who have severe depression go through; the people who contemplate suicide. Its an illness...not a physical one mind you, but an illness all the same. 

 

I mean, not only that but the man died two days ago. Can you show any respect? Can you allow people to mourn? Would you go to the funeral of someone who committed suicide and tell their family "Well they were just selfish you know..."  OF COURSE NOT! You know why? because its inappropriate. 

 

[mod]Personal attack. Warning issued. -dUSt[/mod] 

[blazeingstar]

You are making some serious leaps in logic when you call suicide 'contagious'. I have not seen any solid evidence that people who have lost someone to suicide are more likely to kill themselves, but it does occur to me that relatives/friends of a person who killed themselves may very well be suffering from the exact same circumstances that pushed the person into taking their life - an abusive home, for example. You're just assuming that people kill themselves because they know other people who have done so, when shared circumstances could be just as much at fault. The bottom line is that we can't know, and it is unloving and unhelpful to judge.

 

It's also not so easy to just 'get help'. As Lillabet pointed out, many suicidal people honestly believe that their loved ones would be better off without them - and others are so frightened of worrying their family that they don't approach a doctor or someone who could help them, but instead try to cope alone. That is a bad muddled choice, but it's not a selfish one.

 

I've worked in a psychiatric hospital with people who made multiple suicide attempts and a couple of my closest friends have also tried to take their lives. They are unwell, they are not selfish. And while you may well have every right to your feelings, you were obviously aware that they might be hurtful to some people (you do realise that someone who has tried suicide themselves might be reading your post?). Did it occur to you that it might be selfish of you to prioritise your right to have a public rant over the needs of people who are either disturbed and fragile, or supporting someone who is in that terrible position? And do you honestly think that letting a suicidal person know that you think they're selfish is going to magically make them walk away from the idea?

 

To be honest, the hardest thing about living with and supporting a suicidal friend was not the fear that one day I might come home and find her dead, but attitudes like the one you've shown. They put me off reaching out to other friends for comfort and encouragement, for fear of the reaction I might get, and if that is how I felt just as her friend then goodness knows what it was like for her. If you have been hurt by a friend or relative's suicide, then I'm sorry, but blaming them and getting angry at them for feeling as they did is not the answer.

 

Have you actually read this thread.  Its a proven FACT that suicide is contageous, not an opinion.

 

 

[puellapaschalis]

The preferred method of suicide where I live is by jumping in front of a train. Commuters (and others) often call such people selfish, because it causes havoc during the rush hour.

 

Would you agree with them, Blazeingstar?

[blazeingstar]

The preferred method of suicide where I live is by jumping in front of a train. Commuters (and others) often call such people selfish, because it causes havoc during the rush hour.

 

Would you agree with them, Blazeingstar?

 

Selfish for havok during rush hour?  No (unless this causes someone to die due to being unable to reach a DR)

 

Selfish or the copycats they cause?  Yes

[Aloysius]

http://citizensvoice.com/news/suicide-s-cluster-effect-1.1380882

It should be noted that this advice does not say one should shame the one who committed the suicide.  What it seems to indicate is that grief should be expressed in a way that draws attention to suicide prevention (I have seen this all over the memorials to Robin Williams being posted around the internet)... and I'm sorry, but declaring suicide as "selfish" does absolutely nothing for suicide prevention and I stand by my post that I think it exacerbates the problems of depression and suicidal thoughts.  Thoughts that your suicidal thoughts or depression are somehow your fault, that you should just be able to handle it better and if only you could just pick yourself up, those thoughts pop up and keep people spiraling into depression... like I said, like fighting quicksand, or a rip-tide, those are the thoughts that make it seem impossible to escape.  The first stepping stone towards getting out is to acknowledge that it's not your fault, that people love you, and to get professional help.  The more you blame yourself for your depression, the harder it is to escape it.

 

And when people talk about how selfish someone was for their suicide, it does nothing but make someone with suicidal thoughts blame themselves more.

[CrossCuT]

[dUSt]

Every situation is different. 

 

I can see how suicide could be considered selfish, if the person who killed themselves had no type of mental disorder, knew exactly what they were doing, and did it out of spite or hatred for others. In other words, if they killed themselves to intentionally hurt other people. That may be selfish.

 

But, to say suicide is selfish, or to call Robin Williams selfish, simply shows complete ignorance of mental disorders or severe depression.

 

I have close personal experience with this. A family member, who I was close to, committed suicide. He was on depression medication. His body was found hanging in his barn, by his own son. I refuse to believe that when he hung himself he was thinking about his son walking into that barn. In fact, in his room, a Bible was opened to a verse that implied that he thought what he was doing would actually save his family. In his disordered mind, he was doing the complete opposite of being selfish.

 

"Sane" people cannot comprehend this. I don't. But I am certainly in no position to tell people with a mental condition, which they have no control over, that they are selfish.

[beatitude]

Have you actually read this thread.  Its a proven FACT that suicide is contageous, not an opinion.

 

I've read it all. And as I've said, I worked in acute mental health care for a long time. Just repeating "It's a FACT that suicide is contagious" doesn't make it so. I tried to point out that there are all sorts of factors in why people commit suicide - sharing the same life circumstances, for example - and you have just ignored it, instead clinging to the assumption that a correlation has got to mean a causation. It doesn't. Also, on a forum for mental health practitioners that I'm part of, several clinical psychologists have shared that reading about Robin Williams's death has helped some of their clients to open up and discuss feelings that they were previously hiding. There is no way to tell how someone else's suicide will impact on others, which is why this guesswork is futile as well as unkind.

 

And I notice that you didn't touch the substance of my post, so it seems that yes, you do want to prioritise your right to a public rant above everything else, including the welfare of people like Selah. You are not in a position to be calling anyone else's choices selfish when you make a decision like that.

[CrossCuT]

I've read it all. And as I've said, I worked in acute mental health care for a long time. Just repeating "It's a FACT that suicide is contagious" doesn't make it so. I tried to point out that there are all sorts of factors in why people commit suicide - sharing the same life circumstances, for example - and you have just ignored it, instead clinging to the assumption that a correlation has got to mean a causation. It doesn't. Also, on a forum for mental health practitioners that I'm part of, several clinical psychologists have shared that reading about Robin Williams's death has helped some of their clients to open up and discuss feelings that they were previously hiding. There is no way to tell how someone else's suicide will impact on others, which is why this guesswork is futile as well as unkind.

 

And I notice that you didn't touch the substance of my post, so it seems that yes, you do want to prioritise your right to a public rant above everything else, including the welfare of people like Selah. You are not in a position to be calling anyone else's choices selfish when you make a decision like that.

 

Out of props!

[blazeingstar]

I've read it all. And as I've said, I worked in acute mental health care for a long time. Just repeating "It's a FACT that suicide is contagious" doesn't make it so. I tried to point out that there are all sorts of factors in why people commit suicide - sharing the same life circumstances, for example - and you have just ignored it, instead clinging to the assumption that a correlation has got to mean a causation. It doesn't. Also, on a forum for mental health practitioners that I'm part of, several clinical psychologists have shared that reading about Robin Williams's death has helped some of their clients to open up and discuss feelings that they were previously hiding. There is no way to tell how someone else's suicide will impact on others, which is why this guesswork is futile as well as unkind.

 

And I notice that you didn't touch the substance of my post, so it seems that yes, you do want to prioritise your right to a public rant above everything else, including the welfare of people like Selah. You are not in a position to be calling anyone else's choices selfish when you make a decision like that.

 

If a mod dosn't like it they can block me or ban me.  Until then, everyone else will just have to deal with my opinion.

 

To indicate I have my opinion because I don't have any skin in the game is just false.  This is my opinion because I've been affected.