I'm Sorry, Robin Williams, Suicide Is Selfish

[organwerke]

Also, the article only speaks of children under 18, and not relatives of friends.

[blazeingstar]

The article you quoted speaks mainly about the risk. It also says

The good news, the researchers say, is that though children in this group are at increased risk, most do not die by suicide, and non-genetic risk factors can be modified.

So, it seems that even if there is a higher risk, in reality there isn't an higher percentage of succeeding suicides.

 

Thats one article, and I didn't say most, I said more likely.  If you want to read the entirety of studies on suicide and suicide prevention go to the APA website or the European version (which has better data).

 

Risk is demonstrated as a percentage.  3% is small if you're already segmenting off less than 1% of the population, but given there are billions of people on the earth that's a huge number and a huge risk factor.

 

Robin Williams youngest children (under 18) are now at greater risk of dying from suicide than they were before, no matter how depressed he was before.

[organwerke]

Thats one article, and I didn't say most, I said more likely. If you want to read the entirety of studies on suicide and suicide prevention go to the APA website or the European version (which has better data).

Risk is demonstrated as a percentage. 3% is small if you're already segmenting off less than 1% of the population, but given there are billions of people on the earth that's a huge number and a huge risk factor.

Robin Williams youngest children (under 18) are now at greater risk of dying from suicide than they were before, no matter how depressed he was before.

[organwerke]

Of course I guess no one can think that suicide is a good thing. But I honestly don't accept the idea that a parent's choice can affect the children's choice to do the same. In effect,as this study shows, even if children are exposed to a higher risk the percentage of real suicides isn't higher. But I get your point,blaze,even if I think you are quite unable to get others' point in what they are saying. We come from a Western Culture that has often exaltated suicide in art as in literature. Romeo ane Juliet or the Goethe's Werther are the first examples that comes to my mind. And the same is for many famous persons such as rockstars or poets. But I don't think this is Robin William's case. But it is true that some moral concerns can arise. After all it is different the case of a person who has never known love,who has always struggled to survive, from the case of a person who had many things in his life. I can understand the anger of those who think:he could have had all and decided to waste all of this. But I also can assure for experience that very often insensitive people interact very badly with those who suffer for depression,making judgements or psycological pression on those who are already struggling to win their temptations so I think no one can really judge saying: I don't really care what others think, suicide is always a selfish and immoral act. Period

[blazeingstar]

Of course I guess no one can think that suicide is a good thing. But I honestly don't accept the idea that a parent's choice can affect the children's choice to do the same. In effect,as this study shows, even if children are exposed to a higher risk the percentage of real suicides isn't higher. But I get your point,blaze,even if I think you are quite unable to get others' point in what they are saying. We come from a Western Culture that has often exaltated suicide in art as in literature. Romeo ane Juliet or the Goethe's Werther are the first examples that comes to my mind. And the same is for many famous persons such as rockstars or poets. But I don't think this is Robin William's case. But it is true that some moral concerns can arise. After all it is different the case of a person who has never known love,who has always struggled to survive, from the case of a person who had many things in his life. I can understand the anger of those who think:he could have had all and decided to waste all of this. But I also can assure for experience that very often insensitive people interact very badly with those who suffer for depression,making judgements or psycological pression on those who are already struggling to win their temptations so I think no one can really judge saying: I don't really care what others think, suicide is always a selfish and immoral act. Period

 

Given that the APA came out against many of the memes and photos for fear of suicide contagion, that they have the data and research they do know well what is going on.

 

Certinally, that was all outside of Robin's control, but it is a direct result of his act.

 

Actually, I can.  The CCC declares it so.  Moral law declares it so.  Suicide is always a sin, and is always an evil act.  Culpability for that sin, however, may be zero given the right circumstances.   Killing someone else is always wrong, always causes pain, but sometimes, like in just war or self defense it is necessary and man is not held culpable for this.

[Anastasia13]

Moral of the story:

 

Killing others - bad

 

Killing yourself - bad

 

Critizing people for a biological challenge - bad

 

Struggling with things that make you want to kill yourself - good

 

Having to struggle - bad situation but no moral impact

 

Getting help with struggling - good

[Credo in Deum]

Honey nut clusters.

[organwerke]

Thats one article, and I didn't say most, I said more likely. If you want to read the entirety of studies on suicide and suicide prevention go to the APA website or the European version (which has better data).

Risk is demonstrated as a percentage. 3% is small if you're already segmenting off less than 1% of the population, but given there are billions of people on the earth that's a huge number and a huge risk factor.

Robin Williams youngest children (under 18) are now at greater risk of dying from suicide than they were before, no matter how depressed he was before.

There are factors like psychological violence, phisical violence ane other inflicted pains that can lead a person to commit suicide. There are many suicides that are actually much more homicides than suicides. Putting the attention only on the moral evil of suicide seems really dismissive of the problem. We are all thinking that suicide is never a good choice especially as christians but proclaiming this simply saying: -I'm sorry suicide is selfish and immoral so if you are considering committing it for whatever reason you are not really a brave person- seems so mean and superficial to me. If my father took off his own life I wouldn't think how was he so selfish that he preferred not to live instead of being there for me. I would rather think: how much was he probably suffering that he did such a desperate action. Especially men, who are supposed to be the brave persons who always support others instead of being supported and who are always strong, are those who are ashamed to ask for help and to show they are weak instead and in need of help, and so often they prefer to stop to live rather than to find solutions for their problems. Preventing suicide is very important but I would do it saying that life is too important, that solutions can be found, that no one should be ashamed to ask for help, that people should consider that mental disorders are just as every other illness and not a shame rather than saying: suicide is a selfish and evil moral action and you shouldn't do it because you would put at risk the mental health of your relatives and friends.

[blazeingstar]

There are factors like psychological violence, phisical violence ane other inflicted pains that can lead a person to commit suicide. There are many suicides that are actually much more homicides than suicides. Putting the attention only on the moral evil of suicide seems really dismissive of the problem. We are all thinking that suicide is never a good choice especially as christians but proclaiming this simply saying: -I'm sorry suicide is selfish and immoral so if you are considering committing it for whatever reason you are not really a brave person- seems so mean and superficial to me. If my father took off his own life I wouldn't think how was he so selfish that he preferred not to live instead of being there for me. I would rather think: how much was he probably suffering that he did such a desperate action. Especially men, who are supposed to be the brave persons who always support others instead of being supported and who are always strong, are those who are ashamed to ask for help and to show they are weak instead and in need of help, and so often they prefer to stop to live rather than to find solutions for their problems. Preventing suicide is very important but I would do it saying that life is too important, that solutions can be found, that no one should be ashamed to ask for help, that people should consider that mental disorders are just as every other illness and not a shame rather than saying: suicide is a selfish and evil moral action and you shouldn't do it because you would put at risk the mental health of your relatives and friends.

 

Repeating yourself in block text doesn't make it true.  Especially when studies show otherwise.

 

Fact is not emotional. Fact is just fact.  No one said that telling someone that their suicide may impact their relatives is the ONLY method of treatment, however, it is a very real reality that a person should be aware of.

 

Its like anti-lifers who scream that abortion has no affect on women.  Yeah, it does.  Does it really matter that it's not 100% affected?  Nope.  Its a factor.
 

[organwerke]

Repeating yourself in block text doesn't make it true. Especially when studies show otherwise.

Fact is not emotional. Fact is just fact. No one said that telling someone that their suicide may impact their relatives is the ONLY method of treatment, however, it is a very real reality that a person should be aware of.

Its like anti-lifers who scream that abortion has no affect on women. Yeah, it does. Does it really matter that it's not 100% affected? Nope. Its a factor.

Your last answer hasn't anything to do with my last post. You seem to be focused only with your own interests and are clearly not interested in others'. Who told that telling the impact of suicide on the relatives is the ONLY treatment? Well,this is the only aspect you talk of among many other discussed. How this attitude can help confronting this theme I really don't know. What you probably don't consider is that one of the things less reasonable and understandable in this world is the mind of a person who is considering to commit suicide. You may talk and reason much much more with a woman who is considering abortion. But trying to reason with a person who is considering suicide is something like to try to explain colors to a blind person (or even worse). Yes maybe considering the effects your action can have on your relatives can prevent someone to commit suicide but what I really find disgusting in your approach is that you talk about selfishness and the only thing you are focused on is the impact a suicide can have on others. You don't care about the sufferings a suicide can pass through, you don't care about the reasons that can lead a person to have such horrible thoughts. No, you only care about how others can be affect by it. How sad.

[dairygirl4u2c]

suicide by the sewer side

[emi77]

 

I haven't read this whole mammoth thread (and also very rarely post on phatmass any more) but your position has forced my hand, blazeingstar. For some background, I work in mental health and have a lot of experience, both personal and professional, in this field. 

 

I agree from an 'outsider' perspective (which in reality applies to anyone who hasn't seriously been tempted to commit suicide or who hasn't has successfully or unsuccessfully attempted suicide) that suicide seems selfish for similar reasons to the ones you describe; i.e. that necessary consequential impact that one persons' decision has on other people. I do not dispute that, and indeed from a social perspective it is a selfish decision that counters our moral duty towards others (which is incidentally what the catechism says- http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a5.htm  at 2280-2283)

 

However I think to interpret suicide, especially when you consider that mental illness causes the majority of attempted and successful suicides; ('Around 90% of suicide victims suffer from a psychiatric disorder at the time of their death.' http://www.mentalhealth.org.uk/help-information/mental-health-a-z/S/suicide/) as a purposeful and therefore intrinsically selfish decision that was chosen by someone, is to assume an autonomy and capacity to comprehend the totality of a particular choice, to be present in people that they simply don't have such autonomy at that point in their lives as a result of their illness. Indeed the whole premise of social workers and doctors together being able to detain someone in hospital (thereby depriving them of their right to liberty) for necessary psychiatric treatment is because the law deems that society has a duty of care to these people whose severe mental illness has deprived them of their ability to make decisions pertaining to the safety of themselves and other people.

 

Hence, someone is not sectioned because their decision itself, in this case to attempt suicide, is'mad' (though this is certainly society's stigma) but because their 'madness' has rendered them incapable of full autonomy and the ability to make this decision. From a secular argument's point of view, then if society can legally remove someone's liberty in order to give psychiatric treatment, then it is logically incoherent to still view that same person as having the freedom to exercise his full faculties of reason to recognise the full impact that his 'decision' to commit suicide has on other people. Do you perhaps believe that such laws are therefore wrong, as they are based on assumptions about people' autonomy when attempting suicide and about mental illness, and that society should not be able to detain such people for potentially life-saving treatment?

 

As for suicide being akin to a 'contagious disease', again I can see where you are coming from. Mental illnesses can be referred to as diseases and some of these diseases, like schizophrenia, major depression and substance misuse disorders (incidentally some of the most common diseases people who commit suicide suffer from) are influenced by genetics, as well as other vulnerabilities a person has little control over, such as poverty and race. These vulnerabilities interact with stressors in peoples lives to affect the likelihood of someone developing mental illnesses. This is called the stress-vulnerability model of mental illness. As I'm sure you agree, having a loved one commit suicide suicide is a fairly traumatic event that causes much physical and psychological distress, and combined with other vulnerabilities and stressors, leads to a higher risk of that person developing a mental illness which raises the tragic likelihood of them also committing suicide. If by 'contagious disease' you were in fact referring to the phenomenon of suicide contagion or 'copycat suicide' is rare and specific prevalence factor of suicide and is usually coupled with other vulnerabilities, though it occurs at higher rates when the media reports a hight profile suicide in a sensationalist manner. You can read more about that here: http://www.headspace.org.au/media/9992/Suicide_Contagion.pdf and here: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/media-spotlight/201208/when-suicides-come-in-clusters I agree that suicide contagion is a problem. I very much doubt that proclaiming suicide as a selfish decision, especially given what we know from my paragraph above, will do much to stop it. 

 

As for your point that there is enough psychiatric help in developed countries for people not to commit suicide, I work in the UK and I can assure you that services are under so much financial pressure right now and that we have had to cut many necessary services, that we struggle to find beds in wards to facilitate any treatment at all (let alone good treatment), that community support teams receive too many referrals for their capacity and receive more acute patients than their service is designed to treat and that unfortunately the care we are providing is a far cry from the sophisticated treatments that we can offer for physical health conditions. (Here is a recent article which summarises many of the problems I have just mentioned http://www.communitycare.co.uk/2014/08/20/lamb-childrens-mental-health-system-fit-purpose/) And these problems exist in a rich Western country that provides abundant free healthcare...

 

But even if we did have the state of the art care that our patients undoubtedly deserve, researchers are still a very long way away from 'cures' for many mental illnesses. In fact, recovery from mental illness for many people doesn't mean that their symptoms have disappeared, but might mean that they have learnt new and more effective coping mechanisms or that additional support from other people is more forthcoming. http://www.sane.org/news-comment-2014/1333-suicide-is-not-a-selfish-act-say-survivors-who-have-attempted-to-take-their-own-life-new-research  

 

However sometimes someone has no support, and has tried all the coping mechanisms, therapies and medications that the doctors recommend, and are compliant with their care. But sometimes society and the doctors and their overwrought loved ones can't give any more help.

Yet their symptoms persist. Imagine having a voice telling you to kill yourself constantly. Imagine seeing people jibing you and giving you threatening looks and charging at you with knives constantly. Imagine that you are constantly feeling like the worst you have ever felt in your life. Imagine that death is the only escape route that your mind can focus on, and that every time you think of anything else, your voice tells you how worthless you are, how you are a burden to society and how no one could ever love you. Imagine having those symptoms 24/7, through monotonous long days and sleepless nights; those same symptoms that have more or less ruled your life for 2, 5, 10, 25, or maybe even 50 years? Can you imagine making ANY informed and reasoned decision in such circumstances? I can't. 

 

I refer you again to the catechism 'Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide. We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.' We are told not to pre-judge and hold opinions about God's eternal judgement by Jesus. I believe that by calling people who commit suicide selfish, you have fallen prey to part of society' stigma, usually arising from chronic misunderstandings pertaining to mental illness, which historically has been seen as a criminal act and a mortal sin that is so grave that it renders such people unsure and unworthy of being buried in consecrated ground. Such historical stigma has seeped into how society still views suicide and tragically this stigma itself can cause suicide: http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/183/2/173.2

 

I hope and pray that even if you do not change your position on suicide, that perhaps now after countless people raising their evidenced views and experience, you might at least care about whether you are 'coming across as heartless' in your opinions. I believe this should be the case because even if you disagree with everything I have said so far, your own logic holds you to this; if you do not care about such perceived heartlessness, then you are entirely omitting the charity that you (very nobly) believe should be at the heart of human decision-making, which you wish for other people to act on when they are contemplating suicide as a way to end their immense sufferings. 

 

 

 

[blazeingstar]

 

 

I haven't read this whole mammoth thread (and also very rarely post on phatmass any more) but your position has forced my hand, blazeingstar. For some background, I work in mental health and have a lot of experience, both personal and professional, in this field. 

 

I agree from an 'outsider' perspective (which in reality applies to anyone who hasn't seriously been tempted to commit suicide or who hasn't has successfully or unsuccessfully attempted suicide) that suicide seems selfish for similar reasons to the ones you describe; i.e. that necessary consequential impact that one persons' decision has on other people. I do not dispute that, and indeed from a social perspective it is a selfish decision that counters our moral duty towards others (which is incidentally what the catechism says- http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a5.htm  at 2280-2283)

 

However I think to interpret suicide, especially when you consider that mental illness causes the majority of attempted and successful suicides; ('Around 90% of suicide victims suffer from a psychiatric disorder at the time of their death.' http://www.mentalhealth.org.uk/help-information/mental-health-a-z/S/suicide/) as a purposeful and therefore intrinsically selfish decision that was chosen by someone, is to assume an autonomy and capacity to comprehend the totality of a particular choice, to be present in people that they simply don't have such autonomy at that point in their lives as a result of their illness. Indeed the whole premise of social workers and doctors together being able to detain someone in hospital (thereby depriving them of their right to liberty) for necessary psychiatric treatment is because the law deems that society has a duty of care to these people whose severe mental illness has deprived them of their ability to make decisions pertaining to the safety of themselves and other people.

 

Hence, someone is not sectioned because their decision itself, in this case to attempt suicide, is'mad' (though this is certainly society's stigma) but because their 'madness' has rendered them incapable of full autonomy and the ability to make this decision. From a secular argument's point of view, then if society can legally remove someone's liberty in order to give psychiatric treatment, then it is logically incoherent to still view that same person as having the freedom to exercise his full faculties of reason to recognise the full impact that his 'decision' to commit suicide has on other people. Do you perhaps believe that such laws are therefore wrong, as they are based on assumptions about people' autonomy when attempting suicide and about mental illness, and that society should not be able to detain such people for potentially life-saving treatment?

 

As for suicide being akin to a 'contagious disease', again I can see where you are coming from. Mental illnesses can be referred to as diseases and some of these diseases, like schizophrenia, major depression and substance misuse disorders (incidentally some of the most common diseases people who commit suicide suffer from) are influenced by genetics, as well as other vulnerabilities a person has little control over, such as poverty and race. These vulnerabilities interact with stressors in peoples lives to affect the likelihood of someone developing mental illnesses. This is called the stress-vulnerability model of mental illness. As I'm sure you agree, having a loved one commit suicide suicide is a fairly traumatic event that causes much physical and psychological distress, and combined with other vulnerabilities and stressors, leads to a higher risk of that person developing a mental illness which raises the tragic likelihood of them also committing suicide. If by 'contagious disease' you were in fact referring to the phenomenon of suicide contagion or 'copycat suicide' is rare and specific prevalence factor of suicide and is usually coupled with other vulnerabilities, though it occurs at higher rates when the media reports a hight profile suicide in a sensationalist manner. You can read more about that here: http://www.headspace.org.au/media/9992/Suicide_Contagion.pdf and here: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/media-spotlight/201208/when-suicides-come-in-clusters I agree that suicide contagion is a problem. I very much doubt that proclaiming suicide as a selfish decision, especially given what we know from my paragraph above, will do much to stop it. 

 

As for your point that there is enough psychiatric help in developed countries for people not to commit suicide, I work in the UK and I can assure you that services are under so much financial pressure right now and that we have had to cut many necessary services, that we struggle to find beds in wards to facilitate any treatment at all (let alone good treatment), that community support teams receive too many referrals for their capacity and receive more acute patients than their service is designed to treat and that unfortunately the care we are providing is a far cry from the sophisticated treatments that we can offer for physical health conditions. (Here is a recent article which summarises many of the problems I have just mentioned http://www.communitycare.co.uk/2014/08/20/lamb-childrens-mental-health-system-fit-purpose/) And these problems exist in a rich Western country that provides abundant free healthcare...

 

But even if we did have the state of the art care that our patients undoubtedly deserve, researchers are still a very long way away from 'cures' for many mental illnesses. In fact, recovery from mental illness for many people doesn't mean that their symptoms have disappeared, but might mean that they have learnt new and more effective coping mechanisms or that additional support from other people is more forthcoming. http://www.sane.org/news-comment-2014/1333-suicide-is-not-a-selfish-act-say-survivors-who-have-attempted-to-take-their-own-life-new-research  

 

However sometimes someone has no support, and has tried all the coping mechanisms, therapies and medications that the doctors recommend, and are compliant with their care. But sometimes society and the doctors and their overwrought loved ones can't give any more help.

Yet their symptoms persist. Imagine having a voice telling you to kill yourself constantly. Imagine seeing people jibing you and giving you threatening looks and charging at you with knives constantly. Imagine that you are constantly feeling like the worst you have ever felt in your life. Imagine that death is the only escape route that your mind can focus on, and that every time you think of anything else, your voice tells you how worthless you are, how you are a burden to society and how no one could ever love you. Imagine having those symptoms 24/7, through monotonous long days and sleepless nights; those same symptoms that have more or less ruled your life for 2, 5, 10, 25, or maybe even 50 years? Can you imagine making ANY informed and reasoned decision in such circumstances? I can't. 

 

I refer you again to the catechism 'Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide. We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.' We are told not to pre-judge and hold opinions about God's eternal judgement by Jesus. I believe that by calling people who commit suicide selfish, you have fallen prey to part of society' stigma, usually arising from chronic misunderstandings pertaining to mental illness, which historically has been seen as a criminal act and a mortal sin that is so grave that it renders such people unsure and unworthy of being buried in consecrated ground. Such historical stigma has seeped into how society still views suicide and tragically this stigma itself can cause suicide: http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/183/2/173.2

 

I hope and pray that even if you do not change your position on suicide, that perhaps now after countless people raising their evidenced views and experience, you might at least care about whether you are 'coming across as heartless' in your opinions. I believe this should be the case because even if you disagree with everything I have said so far, your own logic holds you to this; if you do not care about such perceived heartlessness, then you are entirely omitting the charity that you (very nobly) believe should be at the heart of human decision-making, which you wish for other people to act on when they are contemplating suicide as a way to end their immense sufferings. 

 

 

 

 

While you spoke well, your words are completely meaningless to me.  I feel I reserve my charity for those affected by sins, and those who want to repent of their sins.  I do not have any charity or empathy for those who so gravely sin against others....God will decided their fate, I worry about those who are on earth who may be affected, not those who are gone.

[darcy15]

While you spoke well, your words are completely meaningless to me. I feel I reserve my charity for those affected by sins, and those who want to repent of their sins. I do not have any charity or empathy for those who so gravely sin against others....God will decided their fate, I worry about those who are on earth who may be affected, not those who are gone.

Wow.........unbelievable

[Nihil Obstat]

While you spoke well, your words are completely meaningless to me.  I feel I reserve my charity for those affected by sins, and those who want to repent of their sins.  I do not have any charity or empathy for those who so gravely sin against others....God will decided their fate, I worry about those who are on earth who may be affected, not those who are gone.

Interesting. Revealing.