Lefebvre Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 Hello, So, personally I am pursuing a vocation to the priesthood outside diocesan structures, i.e. with sedevacantist organisations such as the CMRI or SSPV. No links will be provided, google it yourself so I don't get yelled at :P So my question here I suppose is, do you think God can call people to vocations outside what you consider the body of the Church? :D Lefebvre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 God could not possibly call someone to a vocation which constituted disobedience to the just exercise of ecclesiastical authority. I think that should be an uncontroversial principle. The more difficult part is determining exactly what constitutes this form of disobedience. Obviously authority can be exercised in an unjust manner, in which case disobedience to the earthly power can constitute true obedience to God's perfect law. In my opinion, the SSPV and CMRI do not fall into this category. I believe their rejection of modern popes is neither justified nor prudent. If you are curious, and if it adds to my 'street cred', many people on this site would probably categorize me in the rad-trad camp, although semantically there is a lot of debate as to what actually defines the 'radical' aspect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrysostom Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 St. Ignatius of Antioch: "Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful to baptize or give communion without the consent of the bishop. On the other hand, whatever has his approval is pleasing to God. Thus, whatever is done will be safe and valid." And I had a post, but...what Nihil said. You know what, this thread might end up being removed to the Debate Table for a variety of reasons and depending on what others say as well. No hard feelings, it's just the way the Vocation Station subforum is oriented and moderated. I'm interested to know why you posted here - I've heard this forum referred to by some as "Neo-Catholic" - and what perspective you hope to gain and whether you think it will be helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lefebvre Posted August 12, 2014 Author Share Posted August 12, 2014 God could not possibly call someone to a vocation which constituted disobedience to the just exercise of ecclesiastical authority. I think that should be an uncontroversial principle. The more difficult part is determining exactly what constitutes this form of disobedience. Obviously authority can be exercised in an unjust manner, in which case disobedience to the earthly power can constitute true obedience to God's perfect law. In my opinion, the SSPV and CMRI do not fall into this category. I believe their rejection of modern popes is neither justified nor prudent. If you are curious, and if it adds to my 'street cred', many people on this site would probably categorize me in the rad-trad camp, although semantically there is a lot of debate as to what actually defines the 'radical' aspect. You sound... SSPX-y, almost. Interesting :p I would ask for details on your idea of justified obedience, but that would stray off-topic. St. Ignatius of Antioch: "Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful to baptize or give communion without the consent of the bishop. On the other hand, whatever has his approval is pleasing to God. Thus, whatever is done will be safe and valid." And I had a post, but...what Nihil said. You know what, this thread might end up being removed to the Debate Table for a variety of reasons and depending on what others say as well. No hard feelings, it's just the way the Vocation Station subforum is oriented and moderated. I'm interested to know why you posted here - I've heard this forum referred to by some as "Neo-Catholic" - and what perspective you hope to gain and whether you think it will be helpful. Sedes have bishops too :p But while it wasn't my intention, if a mod feels the need to move this thread then c'est la vie. I'm here because this forum seemed like a nice younger set. :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 You sound... SSPX-y, almost. Interesting :P I would ask for details on your idea of justified obedience, but that would stray off-topic. My opinion of the SSPX is complex. I attend a Fraternity (shared) parish, which arose from a long established indult Mass. In fact the group formed shortly before I was born, and the first Mass celebrated shortly after. I made my own way over a few years ago now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice_nine Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 So my question here I suppose is, do you think God can call people to vocations outside what you consider the body of the Church? no Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lefebvre Posted August 12, 2014 Author Share Posted August 12, 2014 My opinion of the SSPX is complex. I attend a Fraternity (shared) parish, which arose from a long established indult Mass. In fact the group formed shortly before I was born, and the first Mass celebrated shortly after. I made my own way over a few years ago now. When you say Fraternity, do you mean SSPX or FSSP? I've heard the former referred to as the Fraternity, which is why I ask... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 When you say Fraternity, do you mean SSPX or FSSP? I've heard the former referred to as the Fraternity, which is why I ask... Ah, sorry. I am usually more precise. I mean the FSSP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lefebvre Posted August 12, 2014 Author Share Posted August 12, 2014 Ah, sorry. I am usually more precise. I mean the FSSP. Ah, very nice. I have mixed opinions on the FSSP. I feel like they're too compromising in a doctrinal sense and I honestly would prefer the ICKSP if I were to head back in the direction of full communion; but at the same time I think the FSSP does good work within their understanding of the Church and her situation. Aren't too many FSSP parishes either, so you're lucky to have found one. But I'm sure you know that :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catherine Therese Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 do you think God can call people to vocations outside what you consider the body of the Church?There is a distinction to be made between God's antecedent will and God's consequent will (often referred to as His permissive will). If you make a choice that is contrary to His antecedent will, that does not preclude the possibility that He might still work some good out of such a choice, if the choice was made in ignorance and without malice. As a result, even when we choose wrong, God's will is not thwarted. Blessed be God for the gift of His abundant mercy.Given that God has instituted a Church with a well-defined hierarchy, and established a line of succession within that structure, it is hard to see how a decision to wilfully operate outside of that structure is anything other than a rejection of God's will (of the antecedent variety).Further, if belonging to one of these sedevacantist communities involves a vow of obedience, then you have to wonder what they mean by that, given that their existence has necessarily arisen from an act of disobedience.I have to admit I find it hard to see a sedevacantist organisation as anything other than a strange hybrid of gnosticism and rigorism. Such groups represent the "perfecti" of our time. The only logical way to reconcile a rejection of the authority of the Peter of our time is to conclude that you believe that either a) Jesus Christ was wrong in establishing the Church in the manner that He did, or b) that He is not omniscient such that He had no idea who the Pope would be in two thousand years and if He had only known what direction the Church would take He would never have done things the way He did, or He is not omnipotent and cannot ensure that the Pope does not lead the the Church overall in a direction outside of His will. None of which are credible claims if you believe that Jesus Christ is the co-equal second Person of the Blessed Trinity.If you really seek to serve Him, and not some human agenda, I'd strongly recommend investigating the FSSP or any other communities that may exist that, whilst offering their public worship in a manner aligned more with your preference for the traditional, yet still recognise the authority of the Magisterium as having been received through Apostolic Succession from the Lord Himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Credo in Deum Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 So my question here I suppose is, do you think God can call people to vocations outside what you consider the body of the Church? :D Lefebvre No. What is the body of the Church? It is the Mystical Body of Christ. Christ would never tell people to leave Him or to disobey Him. "He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me."--Luke 10:16 "He that is not with me, is against me: and he that gathereth not with me, scattereth." --Matthew 12:30 "And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican."--Matthew 18:17 It's clear if you leave the Church you leave Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lefebvre Posted August 12, 2014 Author Share Posted August 12, 2014 There is a distinction to be made between God's antecedent will and God's consequent will (often referred to as His permissive will). If you make a choice that is contrary to His antecedent will, that does not preclude the possibility that He might still work some good out of such a choice, if the choice was made in ignorance and without malice. As a result, even when we choose wrong, God's will is not thwarted. Blessed be God for the gift of His abundant mercy. Given that God has instituted a Church with a well-defined hierarchy, and established a line of succession within that structure, it is hard to see how a decision to wilfully operate outside of that structure is anything other than a rejection of God's will (of the antecedent variety). Further, if belonging to one of these sedevacantist communities involves a vow of obedience, then you have to wonder what they mean by that, given that their existence has necessarily arisen from an act of disobedience. If you really seek to serve Him, and not some human agenda, I'd strongly recommend investigating the FSSP or any other communities that may exist that, whilst offering their public worship in a manner aligned more with your preference for the traditional, yet still recognise the authority of the Magisterium as having been received through Apostolic Succession from the Lord Himself. Quote edited slightly to avoid debate; although that may actually be a lost cause with this topic. Perhaps I should have considered the thread location w/ more prudence... Anyhow, thank you for the comments vis-a-vis antecedent and consequent will; I wasn't aware of the distinction and I find it to be a very interesting one. As per vows of obedience, I believe the CMRI has their religious sign a statement promising that they are either sedevacantist or keep non-sede views to themselves, but I have no idea whether they require a vow of obedience to the Congregation. Neither do I know for the SSPV for that matter although they have a rigid reputation so probably so... I'll have to check. I do indeed wish to serve the Lord, and have investigated the FSSP -- although as previously mentioned, I rather prefer the ICKSP -- and similar communities. Obviously I have my disagreements with them (otherwise I wouldn't have posted about Rad Trad, rather than just Trad, vocations :p) but I have looked into them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marigold Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 Hi Lefebvre! So what is your position - are you currently out of communion with Rome, or simply considering it on the basis of liking these communities? Asking to satisfy my own devilish curiosity :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lefebvre Posted August 12, 2014 Author Share Posted August 12, 2014 Hi Lefebvre! So what is your position - are you currently out of communion with Rome, or simply considering it on the basis of liking these communities? Asking to satisfy my own devilish curiosity :) I'd put it as "tentatively out of communion." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marigold Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 I'd put it as "tentatively out of communion." Ok! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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