kateri05 Posted June 9, 2004 Share Posted June 9, 2004 I was talking to some friends last nite about cardinal ratzinger (and how he is wonderful :-D) and they not only strongly disagreed but said that he said that protestants are going to hell in a recent publication (one in the past few years) i had no sure defense for that since i dont read as much of his writings as i should/want to but i did say, i dont believe he said EXACTLY that because he would NEVER contradict the catechism (or the holy father) so that cant be literally true. does anyone know what work they are referring to? and is cardinal ratzinger as awesome as i think he is? :-p any thoughts would be appreciated for this jv apologist! 8-) thanks! much love in Christ, kateri05 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p0lar_bear Posted June 9, 2004 Share Posted June 9, 2004 I'd say it's up to them to provide the reference. If they accuse someone, particularly a Cardinal, of saying something contrary to the Church, they are responsible for supporting that accusation. Of course, it is true, most likely, that there are protestants who are going to hell...there are probably also Catholics who are going to hell..... A statement to that effect would be perfectly in line with Church teaching. Without context, it's all but impossible to say what Cardinal Ratzinger really meant... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JeffCR07 Posted June 9, 2004 Share Posted June 9, 2004 Putting the Smack Down on Heresy Since 1981! I recommend his [u]Spirit of the Liturgy[/u] its AMAZINGLY AWESOMELY SUPER also, Lina, I'm dissapointed, a two hour phone conversation wasn't enough, so you had to post on PM, didn't you?...I feel so unloved Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cure of Ars Posted June 9, 2004 Share Posted June 9, 2004 Here is a good website on Cardinal Ratzinger [url="http://www.ratzingerfanclub.com/"]http://www.ratzingerfanclub.com/[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 cure of ars, awesome link! btw, did u know that they provide a link to phatmass at their site? that's pretty cool! go [url="http://www.ratzingerfanclub.com/Recommended_Links.html"][b]here[/b][/url] and scroll down to the very bottom. thanks, phatcatholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 From the original post: "I was talking to some friends last nite about cardinal ratzinger (and how he is wonderful :-D) and they not only strongly disagreed but said that he said that protestants are going to hell in a recent publication (one in the past few years) . . ." The people you were talking to were most likely referring to the CDF Instruction [u]Dominus Iesus[/u], because it is in that document that Cardinal Ratzinger reiterated the teaching of the Second Vatican Council, which basically said that Protestant ecclesial communities are not "Churches" in the proper sense of the term. The Protestant communities that arose out of the Reformation schism, and in later centuries, are not Churches in the proper sense because they lack valid orders and a valid Eucharist. That is the teaching of the Fathers of Vatican II which Cardinal Ratzinger reaffirmed. He also pointed out that the one Church of Christ only subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, and thus it alone is the one true Church. It is important to note that Cardinal Ratzinger is not denying that there can be elements of grace outside the Catholic Church, for as he goes on to say, once again in line with the teaching of the Council: "[i]outside of her structure, many elements can be found of sanctification and truth[/i], that is, in those Churches and ecclesial communities which are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church. But with respect to these, it needs to be stated that [i]they derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church[/i].” [Dominus Iesus, chap. IV, no. 16] The media presented this document as an attack on non-Catholic Christians, when in fact it was simply a reaffirmation of the teaching of the Second Vatican Council and Catholic tradition in general. There is only one Church of Chrst, and it subsists in the Catholic Church governed by the Successor of St. Peter. Thus, Cardinal Ratzinger has never said that "protestants are going to hell"; instead, he has simply reaffirmed, in an authoritative way, that the Catholic Church possesses the fullness of grace and truth and that it alone is the one Church of Christ. If you want to read [u]Dominus Iesus[/u] in its entirety, it can be found on the Vatican website. [url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html"]Dominus Iesus[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cure of Ars Posted June 12, 2004 Share Posted June 12, 2004 [quote name='phatcatholic' date='Jun 10 2004, 04:16 PM'] cure of ars, awesome link! btw, did u know that they provide a link to phatmass at their site? that's pretty cool! go [url="http://www.ratzingerfanclub.com/Recommended_Links.html"][b]here[/b][/url] and scroll down to the very bottom. thanks, phatcatholic [/quote] I didn't notice that. I'm not supprised. Phatmass is the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorphRC Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 [quote name='kateri05' date='Jun 10 2004, 02:41 AM'] I was talking to some friends last nite about cardinal ratzinger (and how he is wonderful :-D) and they not only strongly disagreed but said that he said that protestants are going to hell in a recent publication (one in the past few years) i had no sure defense for that since i dont read as much of his writings as i should/want to but i did say, i dont believe he said EXACTLY that because he would NEVER contradict the catechism (or the holy father) so that cant be literally true. does anyone know what work they are referring to? and is cardinal ratzinger as awesome as i think he is? :-p any thoughts would be appreciated for this jv apologist! 8-) thanks! much love in Christ, kateri05 [/quote] THey are going to hell, if they dont join the Catholic Church. Thats a teaching since the beginning. Also they dont worship the same God. Pius XII Syallbus[spelling] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cure of Ars Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 [quote name='MorphRC' date='Jun 20 2004, 09:25 PM']THey are going to hell, if they dont join the Catholic Church. Thats a teaching since the beginning. Also they dont worship the same God. Pius XII Syallbus[spelling][/quote] [quote]"Outside the Church there is no salvation" 846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337 848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338 "Outside the Church there is no salvation" 846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: [color=red]Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337[/color] 848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338 [/quote] This exchange probably belongs in the debate section. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorphRC Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 Modern teaching. Protestants Dont worship the same God. --------------- This applies also to Protestantism, since Protestants believe in a Christ who never existed. They believe in a Christ who did not establish a Church to teach, govern and sanctify all men. They believe in a Christ who did not establish a Papacy. They believe in a Christ who does not want us to honor His Holy Mother Mary. (And we know from the Fatima Message that God wants to establish in the world devotion to Our Lady’s Immaculate Heart). They believe in a Christ who did not establish seven Sacraments as the primary means of grace for salvation. They believe in a Christ who did not establish the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. In short, Protestants worship a false Christ, that is, a false God. This is why Blessed Pope Pius IX taught in his 1864 Syllabus that it is an error to believe that "Protestantism is nothing more than another form of the same true Christian religion."[1] [b]1. Pope Pius IX, Syllabus of Errors, 1864, Condemned Proposition #18. Popes Against Modern Errors: 16 Papal Documents, (Rockford: Tan, 1999), p. 30.[/b] --------------- [b]Pope Pius IX, A.D. 1846-1878:[/b] "It is not without sorrow that we have learned another not less pernicious error, which has been spread in several parts of Catholic countries, and have been inbibed by many Catholics, who are of the opinion that all those who are not at all members of the True Church of Christ, can be saved. Hence, they often discuss the question concerning the future fate and condition of those who die without having professed the Catholic Faith, and give the most frivolous reasons in support of their wicked opinion." (Nostis Et Nobiscum) "We must mention and condemn again that most pernicious error, which has been imbibed by certain Catholics, who are of the opinion that those people who live in error and have not the True Faith, and are separated from Catholic unity, may obtain life everlasting. Now this opinion is most contrary to the Catholic Faith, as is evident from the plain words of our Lord, (Mt. 28:17; Mk.16:16; Lk. 10:16; Jn. 3:18), as also from the words of St. Paul, (Tit. 3:10), and of St. Peter (2 Pet. 2:1). To entertain opinions contrary to this Catholic Faith is to be an impious wretch." (Quanto Conficiamur Moerore) "It is a sin to believe there is salvation outside the Church!" (Quoted in, Our Glorious Popes) "6. Amidst, therefore, such great perversity of evil opinions, we, well remembering our Apostolic Office, and very greatly solicitous for our most holy Religion, for sound doctrine and the salvation of souls which is entrusted to us by God, and (solicitous also) for the welfare of human society itself, have thought it right again to raise up our Apostolic voice. Therefore, by our Apostolic authority, We reprobate, proscribe, and condemn all and each evil opinion and doctrine individually mentioned in this letter, and We will and command that they be held by all children of the Catholic Church as absolutely reprobated, proscribed and condemned. […] ***INFALLIBLE***: Ex cathedra: (The following three propositions are “absolutely condemned” as errors:) - "In the worship of any religion whatever, men can find the way to eternal salvation, and can attain eternal salvation." - "We must have at least good hope concerning the eternal salvation of all those who in no wise are in the true Church of Christ." - "Protestantism is nothing else than a different form of the same true Christian religion, in which it is possible to serve God as well as in the Catholic Church." (Syllabus of Errors, attached to Quanta Cura above) ***INFALLIBLE***: Ex cathedra: I Vatican Council, (twentieth ecumenical council) A.D. 1870: "Moreover, although the assent of faith is by no means a blind movement of the intellect, nevertheless, no one can "assent to the preaching of the gospel" as he must to attain salvation, "without the illumination and inspiration of the Holy Spirit, who gives to all a sweetness in consenting to and believing in the truth." [...] Since without faith it is impossible to please God, no one is justified without it, nor will anyone attain eternal life unless he perseveres to the end in it. Moreover, in order that we may satisfactorily perform the duty of embracing the true faith and of continuously persevering in it, God, through His only-begotten Son, has instituted the Church, and provided it with clear signs of His institution, so that it can be recognized by all as the guardian and teacher of the revealed word. [...] The first condition of salvation is to keep the rule of the right faith." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorphRC Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 [b]Pope St. Clement I, A.D. 88-97:[/b] "Heretical teachers pervert Scripture and try to get into Heaven with a false key, for they have formed their human assemblies later than the Catholic Church. From this previously-existing and most true Church, it is very clear that these later heresies, and others which have come into being since then, are counterfeit and novel inventions." (Epistle to the Corinthians) [b]ENGLISH MARTYRS[/b] [b]Saint Thomas More (died A.D. 1535):[/b] "Outside the Church there is no salvation, and therefore if the claims of the pope be true at all, then he who denies them imperils his soul." ([b]Dialogue concerning Heresies[/b].) [b]Saint Edmund Campion, S.J. (died A.D. 1581):[/b] "There is but one plain known road: when you wander from this you are lost. You must be altogether within the House of God, within the walls of salvation, to be sound and safe from injury. If you wander or walk abroad ever so little, if you carelessly thrust hand or foot out of the Ship, you shall be thrust forth: the door is shut, the ocean roars, you are undone." (Letters from the Saints, Fr. Claude Williamson, London: Wyman and Sons, 1948.) [color=red][b]Saint Robert Southwell, S.J. (died A.D. 1595): "Embrace His mercy before the time of rigour and return to His Church lest He debar you from His kingdom. He cannot have God for his Father who does not possess the Catholic Church for his Mother. Turn now the bias of your heart towards the Sanctuary of Salvation and the city of refuge."[/b][/color] [b]Fr. Hugh Green or Ferdinand Brooks (died A.D. 1642):[/b] "I am here condemned to die for my religion, and for being a priest. [...] Against this Roman faith all the sectaries cried out; and all heretics that have been since Christ oppugn this faith, and yet truly out of it none can be saved." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JeffCR07 Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 Morph, you're taking the church's teachings out of context, which is absolutely necessary for the laity (like you and me) to understand. However, the most drastic error that you make is the one that I will address: The infallible contradiction of the following [quote]"In the worship of any religion whatever, men can find the way to eternal salvation, and can attain eternal salvation."[/quote] It should be noted that we DO NOT espouse to say that they, through their [i]religion itself[/i] gain heaven, but rather, through the Grace and Mercy of God. A man lives in the desert. A passer-by tells him stories he heard about catholics who believe in Jesus. By virtue of the information given, the man learns some of what the Church teaches. He does not, however, learn all of it, and he knows of no Bishop or Priest around to baptize him. However, he is inspired by the Spirit, and we believe that he is baptised by desire. But he isn't an official member of the Catholic Church, even though he was baptised by desire. He doesn't believe in the Mass because he has never heard of it; however, based on what he [i]has[/i] heard, he orients the worship that he DOES know towards Christ. This man, according to the Church, WILL go to heaven, provided he isnt in a state of mortal sin when he dies. In the same way, someone who has never truly known the Church (ie has been raised in an environment where the Church is slandered, biased against, and blasphemed) can still go to heaven through his desire for union with Christ. The religion doesn't save him, his faith/works, inspired by the Grace of the Spirit do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cure of Ars Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 (edited) I don't deny the quotes that you give. But let me ask you two questions. Does God condemn people, “through no fault of their own”, to hell? Did father Abraham, a Jew, worship a different God then us? Edited June 21, 2004 by Cure of Ars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 Pope Pius IX: Adressing an audience: [quote]We must hold as of the faith, that out of the Apostolic Roman Church there is no salvation; that she is the only ark of safety, and whosoever is not in her perishes in the deluge; [b]we must also, on the other hand, recognize with certainty that those who are invincible in ignorance of the true religion are not guilty for this in the eyes of the Lord[/b]. And who would presume to mark out the limits of this ignorance according to the character and diversity of peoples, countries, minds and the rest?[/quote] Papal Encyclical: Quanto conficiamur moerore: [quote][b]It is known to us and to you that those who are in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion, but who observe carefully the natural law, and the precepts graven by God upon the hearts of all men, and who being disposed to obey God lead an honest and upright life, may, aided by the light of divine grace, attain to eternal life[/b]; for God who sees clearly, searches and knows the heart, the disposition, the thoughts and intentions of each, in [b]His supreme mercy and goodness by no means permits that anyone suffer eternal punishment, who has not of his own free will fallen into sin[/b].[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorphRC Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 [quote name='JeffCR07' date='Jun 22 2004, 12:15 AM'] Morph, you're taking the church's teachings out of context, which is absolutely necessary for the laity (like you and me) to understand. However, the most drastic error that you make is the one that I will address: The infallible contradiction of the following It should be noted that we DO NOT espouse to say that they, through their [i]religion itself[/i] gain heaven, but rather, through the Grace and Mercy of God. A man lives in the desert. A passer-by tells him stories he heard about catholics who believe in Jesus. By virtue of the information given, the man learns some of what the Church teaches. He does not, however, learn all of it, and he knows of no Bishop or Priest around to baptize him. However, he is inspired by the Spirit, and we believe that he is baptised by desire. But he isn't an official member of the Catholic Church, even though he was baptised by desire. He doesn't believe in the Mass because he has never heard of it; however, based on what he [i]has[/i] heard, he orients the worship that he DOES know towards Christ. This man, according to the Church, WILL go to heaven, provided he isnt in a state of mortal sin when he dies. In the same way, someone who has never truly known the Church (ie has been raised in an environment where the Church is slandered, biased against, and blasphemed) can still go to heaven through his desire for union with Christ. The religion doesn't save him, his faith/works, inspired by the Grace of the Spirit do. [/quote] Quotes arent out of context. So dont try that line. Its there and thats it. Believe or dont, doesnt bother me, since I dont follow it anymore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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