Carmelite Monastery Ropes

[clk]

I recently prayed in the chapel of a Carmelite Monastery and was surprised to see the left pews roped off.  When I asked the lay person manning the gift shop desk, she said it was to prevent people from observing even the hint of a veil of a nun when they are praying.  This seemed so unwelcoming to me but perhaps I am being uncharitable.  Any thoughts?

 

[beatitude]

They are enclosed sisters and this is evidently how they have decided to keep their enclosure. It seems a clumsy way to do it (it sounds as though it would be more practical for them to have a traditional grille than to block access to part of the chapel) but no doubt there will be reasons for it. Some people treat nuns almost as a tourist attraction, like fish in an aquarium, and others hold the belief that nuns need to be seen praying in order to inspire others to pray. I have heard cloistered sisters rejecting both notions, saying that their presence and their prayer are enough, they shouldn't have to be seen. If this is how their community keeps enclosure then we should respect that. We do not see the saints in Heaven either (usually!), but that doesn't mean they aren't welcoming us and loving us. ;)

Edited August 3, 2014 by beatitude

[AccountDeleted]

Carmelite chapels are private, not public chapels, so they make their own rules.

 

That being said, if they are that concerned about being seen, it does seem a bit odd to me that they just don't close their chapel completely during times of silent prayer. During recitation of the Office, personally, I would think they would appreciate that people come to share this with them. Maybe during this time, they could just pull a lightweight curtain across their grille if they don't want to be seen.

 

I don't know, I have lived in a few Carmelite monasteries, and none of them have done this -- so I get why you think it's odd.

 

But then I visited one Carmel in the US where they wouldn't even greet visitors at the turn. They had a lay woman who acted like a policewoman - she told me the sisters didn't see anyone, and I could put a letter through the slot if I wanted. I did so, and then went to pray in their chapel for awhile. They had everything closed up on the grille side (curtains and all) so I prayed for a little while and then left. The Chapel was lovely enough but it felt a little unfriendly so I didn't stay long.

 

I contrast that with the monasteries where I have been allowed to be in the chapel while they prayed the Office - very inspiring for me and it made me want to stay and pray by myself even after they had finished.

 

But all I can say is 'to each her own'.   :)

[twohearts]

I think I know which Carmel that was, Nunsense....

[AccountDeleted]

I think I know which Carmel that was, Nunsense....

 

 

:wink:

 

Loose lips sink ships! :)

 

They may have changed since then. Besides, it wouldn't be nice to mention them by name but yes, you might know. I think I might have posted something about them at sometime in the past when I was discerning.

 

I'm a nicer person now though so no names. :P

[clk]

That was the perplexing thing because they do have the traditional grille.  I guess some people might consider nuns a tourist attraction, but considering one has to ring the bell, talk to whoever is manning the gift shop and then enter, only the most ardent tourist would bother for that reason.  But, maybe I underestimate the tourists.  It did seem unwelcoming though and since I used to go there as a little child, it was sad for me.

[AveMariaPurissima]

I've seen pictures of the pews roped off like you describe in a Poor Clare monastery...

[graciandelamadrededios]

Each Carmelite Monastery has its own custom and it would really depend on area where they are situated.  The Carmelite Monastery in Manila has their front pews - left side of the chapel reserved for the extern sisters - the nun's choir is on the right.  During mass and chanting of the LOTH, the nuns opens the curtains and the grilles. 

 

However, in Baguio Carmel, the chapel is much smaller and the Nuns decided to close the choir grilles and curtains during LOTH to prevent people from gawking at them when they are at prayers since the front pews are close to the grilles.  They have extern sister who attends to visitors and tourists.

 

 

[clk]

In this particular chapel, one cannot see the nuns during prayer, even if the curtain is open.  The chapel has been welcoming the public since the 20's and I wondered what made the nuns decide to rope off the pews now.  Your comments and thoughts are helpful, and yes, it is their chapel so they can decide whatever they want. 

 

[brandelynmarie]

I find it interesting that Carmelite monastery chapels are considered private & not public. The one I visited over the weekend had front pews that could be roped off with velvet ropes. I figured it was because the only way to use them was to enter & exit from the main aisle...but maybe they were originally for externs? Hmmm...things to ponder...

Their chapel had a grille behind the altar that went halfway up & covered in curtains that were opened slightly in the middle. I could see the beautiful statue of our Lady of Mount Carmel with the Baby Jesus, the occasional top of a veil & not much else. ;) I admit I couldn't resist peeking, especially during Vespers, but I didn't go out of my way to look either :blush:

[graciandelamadrededios]

I find it interesting that Carmelite monastery chapels are considered private & not public. The one I visited over the weekend had front pews that could be roped off with velvet ropes. I figured it was because the only way to use them was to enter & exit from the main aisle...but maybe they were originally for externs? Hmmm...things to ponder...

Their chapel had a grille behind the altar that went halfway up & covered in curtains that were opened slightly in the middle. I could see the beautiful statue of our Lady of Mount Carmel with the Baby Jesus, the occasional top of a veil & not much else. ;) I admit I couldn't resist peeking, especially during Vespers, but I didn't go out of my way to look either :blush:

 

Technically, the Nuns built and own their monastery and chapels unless the Bishop bought and built it for them but still it does not belong to the Diocese.

 

Each monastery is autonomous.

[graciandelamadrededios]

That was the perplexing thing because they do have the traditional grille.  I guess some people might consider nuns a tourist attraction, but considering one has to ring the bell, talk to whoever is manning the gift shop and then enter, only the most ardent tourist would bother for that reason.  But, maybe I underestimate the tourists.  It did seem unwelcoming though and since I used to go there as a little child, it was sad for me.

 

 

During Pre-Vatican II period, it is written on the Customary of French Carmels that the grille will have spikes on them.  So outsiders will stay away from that area.

 

During the time of St. Teresa, the spikes serves as protection against the family of a Nun who threatens to grab their daughters/sisters/relatives from the opening of the grille.

 

While the church is open to public, their small chapel is primarily for the Nun's liturgical use.

[Chiquitunga]

I have seen this before at a few Carmels, to the best of my memory, two for sure. I'm always happy when a community tries hard to stay hidden for the most part, but that's me :ninja:  :smile4:

[nikita92]

My heart leaps to see any sort of a religious! ;) The Carmelite monastery I have prayed in (in my area) .. was just right! One could catch a glimpse of the nuns in their chapel, but not enough as to be invasive to privacy!