There Was A Man

[AccountDeleted]

There was a man who took great pride in the fact that he could drink anyone under the table. 

 

 

Later in life he had a religious conversion and wanted to change his ways.

 

 

He became a Trappist monk.

 

 

He became very ascetic and then took great pride in the fact that he could fast better than anyone else in the monastery.

 

 

Any improvement?

 

 

 

Discuss..... 

[brandelynmarie]

Nope. :) His spiritual problem is still pride, although his physical health may have improved!

The Church Fathers had a story about a monk who thought he could fast & pray so well, that he didn't need to join in the common life of the community. He asked for permission to live alone in a solitary cave. Once there, he fainted dead away! He returned humbled & explained what happened to the Abba. The Abba replied, "While you lived among us, your bread was the admiration of the other brothers. Once you removed yourself from this 'bread', you could no longer sustain yourself alone. It is good that you see this now & return to the community."

[cmaD2006]

Agreeing ... he replaced the flavor of sin. I mean both were prideful. Just that one looked more saintly, and possibly more deadly.

[Credo in Deum]

Thomas Merton?

[Luigi]

Thomas Merton?

 

I don't know if Merton was a heavy drinker - it's pretty likely, I guess. 

 

But the bio I read of him said he had an illegitimate child. That kid would have grandkids of her/his own by this time. 

 

 

 

 

 

Wouldn't it be weird to walk around knowing that your grandfather was a famous Trappist monk and spiritual writer? 

[Catherine Therese]

From what I understand the Trappists brew this stuff that you basically only have to sniff before you're intoxicated... ;)

So I'm not really all that sure that he really picked the right community if he was looking to change his ways! 

[AccountDeleted]

No, no, this wasn't about Merton - lol :)

 

This was a discussion I had with my Prioress during Novitiate when we were discussing asceticism in Carmel. I have to read a little book on the Formation of a Carmelite nun and then she asks me if I have questions about anything I have read. Since I have been in some VERY ascetic Carmels, and the one I am in now is not as strict, I wanted to get her opinion on what asceticism really is and what it means in religious life and how much is too much?

 

There is a thread going on in the VS about nuns using common underwear and it has turned into a discussion on asceticism, so this topic seems to be at the forefront of my mind right now. 

 

I asked the Prioress about the 'discipline' (a little whip that we used in one Carmel several times a week as an ascetic practice). None of the other Carmels I have been in have continued to use it post Vatican 2, so I was just interested in her point of view about that and other practices... and she told me this story about the man.

 

It does seem that we can be prideful of anything -- even being ascetic. So I wondered what others on here thought about it. And it does seem to be recognized that if one is full of pride about one thing, that pride can just be carried right into religious life, no matter how ascetic the environment. Humility is obviously  more about the inner transformation than the exterior practices. Of course, we all know that, but this story just points out to me that if we can't deal with our pride in the 'real world' then there is no reason to think that we will be able to do it any better in religious life.

 

Just thought it was interesting, that's all.

[Credo in Deum]

No, no, this wasn't about Merton - lol :)

This was a discussion I had with my Prioress during Novitiate when we were discussing asceticism in Carmel. I have to read a little book on the Formation of a Carmelite nun and then she asks me if I have questions about anything I have read. Since I have been in some VERY ascetic Carmels, and the one I am in now is not as strict, I wanted to get her opinion on what asceticism really is and what it means in religious life and how much is too much?

There is a thread going on in the VS about nuns using common underwear and it has turned into a discussion on asceticism, so this topic seems to be at the forefront of my mind right now.

I asked the Prioress about the 'discipline' (a little whip that we used in one Carmel several times a week as an ascetic practice). None of the other Carmels I have been in have continued to use it post Vatican 2, so I was just interested in her point of view about that and other practices... and she told me this story about the man.

It does seem that we can be prideful of anything -- even being ascetic. So I wondered what others on here thought about it. And it does seem to be recognized that if one is full of pride about one thing, that pride can just be carried right into religious life, no matter how ascetic the environment. Humility is obviously more about the inner transformation than the exterior practices. Of course, we all know that, but this story just points out to me that if we can't deal with our pride in the 'real world' then there is no reason to think that we will be able to do it any better in religious life.

Just thought it was interesting, that's all.

I agree we can be prideful anywhere, however, I do not believe asceticism fosters pride. As for the example above we should not say "there is pride, therefore there is no improvement." Not only was there improvement there was tons to be thankful for. The man went from being a drunkard to having a conversion of heart and becoming a Trappist monk. If the man had, in the past, opened his heart to God to receive the graces to covert and follow God's calling, then I'm sure he can be instructed on the proper dispositions one should have toward fasting.

I also do not agree with your last sentence. Sometimes the 'real world' does not provide someone with the proper environment or support they need to combat their faults. Communities can help provide these environments and can help those who want to change for the better. The man in the story sounds like a man who wants to change but may need some direction on how to go about doing this. His brothers and especially his abbot should approach him with charity to help guide him. People do not have to be perfect in order to inter religious life. They just need to be open to love and instruction. With this disposition not only can they be hopeful of improvement but they can be assured that their vocation to religious life will give them the means to better combat their faults and grow in unity with Christ.

[AccountDeleted]

I agree we can be prideful anywhere, however, I do not believe asceticism fosters pride. As for the example above we should not say "there is pride, therefore there is no improvement." Not only was there improvement there was tons to be thankful for. The man went from being a drunkard to having a conversion of heart and becoming a Trappist monk. If the man had, in the past, opened his heart to God to receive the graces to covert and follow God's calling, then I'm sure he can be instructed on the proper dispositions one should have toward fasting.

I also do not agree with your last sentence. Sometimes the 'real world' does not provide someone with the proper environment or support they need to combat their faults. Communities can help provide these environments and can help those who want to change for the better. The man in the story sounds like a man who wants to change but may need some direction on how to go about doing this. His brothers and especially his abbot should approach him with charity to help guide him. People do not have to be perfect in order to inter religious life. They just need to be open to love and instruction. With this disposition not only can they be hopeful of improvement but they can be assured that their vocation to religious life will give them the means to better combat their faults and grow in unity with Christ.

 

 

Credo - have you ever actually lived in religious life? I ask this because your posts often state the 'ideal' of monastic life rather than the reality. 

 

Let me make this example. If you are standing in the rain and there is a bus shelter nearby, then the logical thing to do would be to get under the shelter because you wouldn't get as wet (the wind might still blow some water your way, but the idea is that a 'shelter' would be better than out in the rain. However, if the bus shelter had a broken roof with a hole in it that channeled all the water into a kind of 'drain effect', to stand in the shelter might mean that you would be deluged with water all at once and become soaked immediately. Now this is just an example and of course any example has its flaws, but the point is that some communities are dysfunctional in a way that causes damage to the individual instead of being life affirming. 

 

Apart from that, in the story I posted, the man obviously improved his physical life by giving up drinking, but simply living in a monastery does not necessarily make one more holy or provide them with the environment they need to progress spiritually. And not every monastery is able to provide the support that a person needs in order to progress spiritually, even if this is the ideal. The Abbot and the brothers of that monastery may not have been able to provide that brother with what he needed because perhaps they either admired him for his asceticism, thus encouraging his pride, or they were envious of him and tried to compete with his asceticism, or perhaps just didn't know how to help him see his problem.

 

Also, the point was not that asceticism fosters pride but rather it doesn't necessarily remove it either. In fact, spiritual pride can be even more deadly. When the Pharisees were standing in the Temple praising themselves on being so holy, the truly humble and repentant 'sinner' was begging God to have mercy on him - and we saw Jesus' reaction to that. So simply becoming a religious does not guarantee humility, or even that everyone in the monastery is seeking this (believe it or not). In monasteries, there is also politics, ambition, vanity and cliques. These are things that God can use to our advantage, but they can also be things that cause much damage to individuals within the monastery. I can't count on one hand the number of nuns I have met in solemn vows who suffer from anxiety, depression or other forms of psychological distress (almost like PTSD) because of the toxicity of the environment they felt they had to endure in order to please God by persevering in religious life. Not everyone who enters is a St Therese.

 

That is not a criticism of religious life in general - there are so many really healthy communities as well, and these are more like the 'ideal' that you mention. But even in these communities, we must always remember that if the individual is resistant to change, then it doesn't matter whether they are in religious life or not. Simply 'being there' does not provide one with a guarantee of anything. I have met nuns who have been in religious life for 50+ years who are mean, nasty, vindictive and power-mad. I have also met a few 'saints' as well, but it's important not to idealize religious life as the answer to all spiritual problems.

 

And, I stand by my statement that not everyone belongs in religious life - sometimes living in the 'real world' is a better teacher for many things. If, instead of entering the monastery, for example, the man in the story had given up drinking and then gone to work in a mission helping the poor and diseased in a Third World country, he might have learned more about humility than he obviously had in the monastery. St Therese's parents discerned that they didn't belong in religious life, and that they should have children, and they ended up with a saint as a daughter, saints themselves, and possibly more children being canonized over time. 

 

Religious life might certainly be the higher vocation, but God made man and woman before there ever were monasteries and every one of us has a calling to holiness, inside or outside the monastery walls.

[brandelynmarie]

I am learning that one's disposition towards penance & asceticism matters greatly. When approached with humility & love, these practices will become useful, holy things.

But as someone else mentioned in VS, there is a big difference between humility & humiliation...

[Credo in Deum]

Credo - have you ever actually lived in religious life? I ask this because your posts often state the 'ideal' of monastic life rather than the reality.

Let me make this example. If you are standing in the rain and there is a bus shelter nearby, then the logical thing to do would be to get under the shelter because you wouldn't get as wet (the wind might still blow some water your way, but the idea is that a 'shelter' would be better than out in the rain. However, if the bus shelter had a broken roof with a hole in it that channeled all the water into a kind of 'drain effect', to stand in the shelter might mean that you would be deluged with water all at once and become soaked immediately. Now this is just an example and of course any example has its flaws, but the point is that some communities are dysfunctional in a way that causes damage to the individual instead of being life affirming.

Apart from that, in the story I posted, the man obviously improved his physical life by giving up drinking, but simply living in a monastery does not necessarily make one more holy or provide them with the environment they need to progress spiritually. And not every monastery is able to provide the support that a person needs in order to progress spiritually, even if this is the ideal. The Abbot and the brothers of that monastery may not have been able to provide that brother with what he needed because perhaps they either admired him for his asceticism, thus encouraging his pride, or they were envious of him and tried to compete with his asceticism, or perhaps just didn't know how to help him see his problem.

Also, the point was not that asceticism fosters pride but rather it doesn't necessarily remove it either. In fact, spiritual pride can be even more deadly. When the Pharisees were standing in the Temple praising themselves on being so holy, the truly humble and repentant 'sinner' was begging God to have mercy on him - and we saw Jesus' reaction to that. So simply becoming a religious does not guarantee humility, or even that everyone in the monastery is seeking this (believe it or not). In monasteries, there is also politics, ambition, vanity and cliques. These are things that God can use to our advantage, but they can also be things that cause much damage to individuals within the monastery. I can't count on one hand the number of nuns I have met in solemn vows who suffer from anxiety, depression or other forms of psychological distress (almost like PTSD) because of the toxicity of the environment they felt they had to endure in order to please God by persevering in religious life. Not everyone who enters is a St Therese.

That is not a criticism of religious life in general - there are so many really healthy communities as well, and these are more like the 'ideal' that you mention. But even in these communities, we must always remember that if the individual is resistant to change, then it doesn't matter whether they are in religious life or not. Simply 'being there' does not provide one with a guarantee of anything. I have met nuns who have been in religious life for 50+ years who are mean, nasty, vindictive and power-mad. I have also met a few 'saints' as well, but it's important not to idealize religious life as the answer to all spiritual problems.

And, I stand by my statement that not everyone belongs in religious life - sometimes living in the 'real world' is a better teacher for many things. If, instead of entering the monastery, for example, the man in the story had given up drinking and then gone to work in a mission helping the poor and diseased in a Third World country, he might have learned more about humility than he obviously had in the monastery. St Therese's parents discerned that they didn't belong in religious life, and that they should have children, and they ended up with a saint as a daughter, saints themselves, and possibly more children being canonized over time.

Religious life might certainly be the higher vocation, but God made man and woman before there ever were monasteries and every one of us has a calling to holiness, inside or outside the monastery walls.

Thank you, Nunsense. No, I have not lived in religious life, I have merely spoken to friends and family who have. I agree religious life is not for everyone, and I understand that living in a community is not going to be a bowl full of skittles. Not everyone who enters is doing it for the right reason or with good intentions. Not everyone who enters is going the be a Therese or a Pio. There will be nice people and nasty people just like in real life. Some will view themselves holier than others, more knowledgeable than others, and more righteous than others. Even to the point where they treat everyone else they meet in a condescending manner. I believe those who are discerning a vocation in the religious life need to be honest with themselves and to acknowledge their limitations.

Also I understand that becoming a religious does not automatically guarantee humility. I do believe, however, that once a person is past the discernment phase, they can have a reasonable hope that God does, and will provide them with, the graces necessary to combat their faults and to live out their vocations the way He wills them to be lived. In the story the man became a Trappist monk, and so religious life -while it's practices are right now a source of pride for him- can help him be better if he prays for the graces necessary to view fasting and his vocation with the proper disposition. Our vocations once we are in them, can be the means of our sanctification if we let them be, and so I do not agree that religious life for a professed religious will not help them be a better person. Of course I do agree that nothing can help us be better if we do not will to be better and if we do not take the necessary steps to be better. We are in a relationship with God and so our cooperation is essential.

[AccountDeleted]

Thank you, Nunsense. No, I have not lived in religious life, I have merely spoken to friends and family who have. I agree religious life is not for everyone, and I understand that living in a community is not going to be a bowl full of skittles. Not everyone who enters is doing it for the right reason or with good intentions. Not everyone who enters is going the be a Therese or a Pio. There will be nice people and nasty people just like in real life. Some will view themselves holier than others, more knowledgeable than others, and more righteous than others. Even to the point where they treat everyone else they meet in a condescending manner. I believe those who are discerning a vocation in the religious life need to be honest with themselves and to acknowledge their limitations.

Also I understand that becoming a religious does not automatically guarantee humility. I do believe, however, that once a person is past the discernment phase, they can have a reasonable hope that God does, and will provide them with, the graces necessary to combat their faults and to live out their vocations the way He wills them to be lived. In the story the man became a Trappist monk, and so religious life -while it's practices are right now a source of pride for him- can help him be better if he prays for the graces necessary to view fasting and his vocation with the proper disposition. Our vocations once we are in them, can be the means of our sanctification if we let them be, and so I do not agree that religious life for a professed religious will not help them be a better person. Of course I do agree that nothing can help us be better if we do not will to be better and if we do not take the necessary steps to be better. We are in a relationship with God and so our cooperation is essential.

 

 

 

What you might be missing here is that the story is just that -- a story - with a moral. It isn't a tale about a real man who really made vows etc. It was an example used by  my Prioress to explain that pride comes with us into the monastery and asceticism isn't necessarily the answer to getting rid of it. 

 

Jesus spoke in parables - not every one was meant to be taken literally. :)

[brandelynmarie]

So did your prioress give you a solution to this question? :)

[Credo in Deum]

So did your prioress give you a solution to this question? :)

I was thinking the same thing. I felt the story gave a lesson but lacked a sense of hope that there is a solution. Just my opinion.

Although a name for the parable can be: Old habits in habits die hard.

[AccountDeleted]

So did your prioress give you a solution to this question? :)

 

 

I was thinking the same thing. I felt the story gave a lesson but lacked a sense of hope that there is a solution. Just my opinion.

Although a name for the parable can be: Old habits in habits die hard.

 

 

 

Actually the story stimulated quite an interesting discussion on asceticism in Carmel and how different communities see things differently and that why they do things differently.  Because I have been in four different communities before this one, and each one has approached this differently, she works very hard to help me understand things like this -- plus she has really been God's instrument in helping me to heal from some of the experiences I have had in the past. She is the one who also suggested that I meet with one of our Order's priests to discuss what she referred to as my 'woundedness' from religious life, and she couldn't have been more right. I met with a Carmelite priest several times (he doesn't live near us so I can't see him as a regular SD, which is a shame, but just the few meetings we had were invaluable to me). He and I also discussed things like asceticism and obedience and humility vs humiliation etc. and his final recommendation to the Prioress was that he felt I had a lot to offer the Community and that the suffering I had been through had strengthened me in ways that could be beneficial to myself and others. The funny thing is that after my first session with him, I went to Confession with a different priest, and while telling my sins, the priest interrupted and told me that he felt I had been hurt by religious life and that God was trying to help me heal from it. So in the space of about a month, I felt the very strong presence of God through various people reassuring me that it was ok to try religious life again.

 

And another interesting experience for me was that this is the first Carmel where I have actually had to have a psychological evaluation prior to entering and that was a wonderful experience too. I have read about different people's experience of them here in VS but this was my first one for entrance. Even the psychologist helped me because he reaffirmed to me that (believe it or not) I am not crazy apart from my obsession with Carmel! :p But seriously, the questions he asked me helped me to clarify a lot of things like motivation, attributes, affinities, abilities, and even what I could bring into a community and offer them as a member. 

 

So I would like to post more about the discussion on asceticism but since the whole Novitiate class went on for over an hour and a half, I can't really put down everything we discussed at this moment. We have just finished Compline and I am a little tired and might not be able to string my words together coherently a few minutes from now. Maybe on our hermit day (Wednesday), I will have more time to recall and write down some of the things we discussed. All I can say is that this is the best formation I have had in any of the Carmels where I have lived. The Prioress isn't afraid of questions and is prepared to discuss the reasons behind some of the attitudes and customs of this community. For the first time I feel like a mature adult learning something rather than a child being lectured to or admonished. It's a new experience for me and I feel like the bud of a flower opening up in the sun! :)

 

So good night. Let's discuss more of this when we can.

 

I like the name you gave to the parable Credo. But there is hope - there is always hope :)