P3chrmd Posted June 11, 2004 Share Posted June 11, 2004 The Church has almost always tought...that there is not a single grace that we recieve that does not first past through the hands of Mary...All graces come from Christ...but travel through Mary! I have been ALWAYS tought that...EWTN...priests....ect, Its not an official dogma...but it really doesn't need to be...its a basic beliefe already! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorphRC Posted June 11, 2004 Author Share Posted June 11, 2004 Graces do not go thru Mary. They come straight from God to us. NO INTERCESSOR other than Christ, which is God. This is putting mary to close to divinity for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P3chrmd Posted June 11, 2004 Share Posted June 11, 2004 No it dosent! God STILL works thorugh Mary! He came to us THROUGH her...so whose to say that cycle has stoped! MARY IS NOT DIVINE...but by going through Mary to Jesus, or HIM giving us graces THROUGH her...is the will of the father! Like Jim Caviezel said "I go through Mary in obedience to the Father...not in obedience to her!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P3chrmd Posted June 11, 2004 Share Posted June 11, 2004 [quote]It is the teaching of the Church that absolutely ALL grace which is given to humanity passes through Mary, as Mediatrix. Jesus is the Mediator between God and man, but God also wills that all grace which is given by Christ would pass through Mary ----Father Echert (from EWTN online)[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorphRC Posted June 11, 2004 Author Share Posted June 11, 2004 Stop Elevating Marys Position!!!!!!!! There is no such thing as what your saying, and even at what your saying is merely hearsay. The first form of Mariam devotion, to be clearly defined by a Christian community was in the 4th century, in Egypt. The Bible says ALL GRACES COME FROM GOD. Mary has nothing to do with the SAVING PROCESS, but she did PARTICIPATE for it to happen. Virgin Birth, Cana Miracle, etc. Then we have her help from the Rosary and Visionaries, appariations, which arent a requirement for salvation, private revelation. Again. Graces neither come thru Mary, but only from God DIRECTLY to the person. I dont care if Jim said, Im the King of England, doesnt change the fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted June 11, 2004 Share Posted June 11, 2004 [quote name='MorphRC' date='Jun 11 2004, 05:15 AM'] [/quote] MorphRC, May the Peace of Jesus Christ fill your heart. [quote]Stop Elevating Marys Position!!!!!!!![/quote] I suppose it would be fair to ask, where is "Mary's Position"? Is her position defined in the Bible? Can you point us to where "Mary's Position" should be, and that way we might know if we are elevating her? Because if her Position is actually where the Catholic Church says she is, maybe it is you who are lowering her... [quote]There is no such thing as what your saying, and even at what your saying is merely hearsay. [/quote] Please substantiate this. Otherwise we will end up... No she isn't... Yes she is... No she isn't... Yes she is... If you have the time to spend, it would be very very beneficial to see what the early Church thought about her. Read sections from each century, or whatever and see how the Marian Doctrines / Dogmas have developed. I'll bet you will find that not much has changed since early on. Even Martin Luther, the Father of Protestantism, held Mary MUCH higher than where current Protestantism holds her. Please be aware that much of the anti-Mary sentiments are merely a knee-jerk respons to the "taboo" Catholic way. If you have a devotion to Mary you are "too Catholic". Mary is not an enemy of Christ! She is Jesus' Mother! She loves God. Even if your devotion to her was out of control, she'd only point you to her Son. It can't be a bad thing to have a relationship with the Mother of your Redeemer! [quote]The first form of Mariam devotion, to be clearly defined by a Christian community was in the 4th century, in Egypt. The Bible says ALL GRACES COME FROM GOD.[/quote] Oh, good, because Catholic Teaching also states that "all graces come from God". But does the Bible ever state where the Graces, which come from God, go THROUGH? Oh, yes it does! Would you not concider that Jesus is God's Grace? And how did Jesus come to us? He came THROUGH Mary! Jesus was sent by God directly to us, through Mary. [quote] Mary has nothing to do with the SAVING PROCESS, but she did PARTICIPATE for it to happen. [/quote] This is a contradiction. I think you are affraid to admit that Mary played a role in the Saving Process? Like God's going to shoot a bolt of lightning down. That's fair. Better safe than sorry. But consider the reality of it. God wished it this way. It was His plan. You just said, Mary Perticipated for it to happen. So, in participating in it, did she not have a part in the Saving Process? What is the Savign Process? God becomes man, God suffers, dies, and then rises. This is the Saving Process, right? Well, if Mary participated in Jesus becoming a man, then indeed she had something to do with the Saving Process. [quote]Virgin Birth, Cana Miracle, etc. Then we have her help from the Rosary and Visionaries, appariations, which arent a requirement for salvation, private revelation.[/quote] Right, they aren't a requirement, they are only a help. But if Mary helps only one person to know her Son, has she not participated in "saving" someone!? There is a certain someone on this very phorum that was helped by Mary to quit a sin! Now the Grace to quit the sin was given by God no doubt! But the Grace came through Mary, because it was in her intecession that it was recieved. [quote]Again. Graces neither come thru Mary, but only from God DIRECTLY to the person.[/quote] Please substantiate this. The Bible does't state this. And neither do the Early Church Fathers. If you can't substantiate it, then it is simply your word over the Church (not just the present Church, but the continual historic teachings). Grace comes through Mary to us. Jesus came to us through Mary. God came to the Isrealites through Moses. God uses people. Mary was chosen, not because she willed it, but because He willed it. [quote]I dont care if Jim said, Im the King of England, doesnt change the fact.[/quote] But we can likewise say, "I don't care if MorphRC said, Graces neither come thru Mary, doesn't change the fact." Because the "fact" hasn't been established. You haven't substantiated any of your rebuttles. God bless you, and please keep posting and reading. This is the best way for us all to learn about God! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P3chrmd Posted June 11, 2004 Share Posted June 11, 2004 Thanks Jake! Morph...I don't understand the hostility...Its like, you ask a question about what Mary being the mediatrix of all graces mean, and then when I explain it your sitting there saying NO thats not what it is...and it dosent happen that way! Well I hate to break it to you...regardless of whether you believe it or not...it doesent change the fact that...every single grace you have ever recieved first has passed through the hands of Mary before reaching you! I never said, nor has anyone else said, that graces come FROM Mary...ABSOLUTLEY NOT! Mary is NOT God..graces come from God but he wills it to pass through Mary and then come to us! Like the wonderful hymn "Hail Holy Queen" says: "The stream through which all graces flow, oh Maria!" Its a very beautiful concept! God works any wonderful glorious ways! Don't overlook Mary! God has a purpose for everything! He wants us to recieve our graces through Mary for a reason! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P3chrmd Posted June 11, 2004 Share Posted June 11, 2004 [quote]Stop Elevating Marys Position!!!!!!!! There is no such thing as what your saying, and even at what your saying is merely hearsay. The first form of Mariam devotion, to be clearly defined by a Christian community was in the 4th century, in Egypt. The Bible says ALL GRACES COME FROM GOD. Mary has nothing to do with the SAVING PROCESS, but she did PARTICIPATE for it to happen. Virgin Birth, Cana Miracle, etc. Then we have her help from the Rosary and Visionaries, appariations, which arent a requirement for salvation, private revelation. Again. Graces neither come thru Mary, but only from God DIRECTLY to the person. I dont care if Jim said, Im the King of England, doesnt change the fact. [/quote] Just curious Morph...are you catholic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThyWillBeDone Posted June 11, 2004 Share Posted June 11, 2004 I found some information about Mary being the mediatrix of graces that i though may be helpful in this discussion 1) Leo XIII, Encyclical, Supremi Apostolatus officio. Sept 1, 1883. ASS 16, 1883. 1113. We judge nothing more powerful and better for this purpose than by religion and devotion to deserve well of the great Mother of God, the Virgin Mary, who is the treasurer [sequestra] of our peace with God, and the mediatrix [administra] of graces.... 2) Leo XIII, Encyclical, Superiore anno, August 30, 1884. ASS 17, 1884. 49. ... may He hear the prayers of those who beseech through her, whom He Himself willed to be the mediatrix [administram] of graces. 3) Leo XIII, Encyclical, Octobri mense adventante, Sept 22, 1891, ASS 24, 1891, 196. ... it is right to say, that nothing at all of that very great treasury of all grace which the Lord brought us--for 'grace and truth came through Jesus Christ' [Jn 1.17]--nothing is imparted to us except through Mary, since God so wills, so that just as no one can come to the Father except through the Son, so in general, no one can come to Christ except through His Mother. 4) Leo XIII, Encyclical, Iucunda semper, Sept 8, 1984. ASS 27, 1894. 179. ... when He [the Father] has been invoked with excellent prayers, our humble voice turns to Mary; in accordance with no other law than that law of conciliation and petition which was expressed as follows by St. Bernardine of Siena : 'Every grace that is communicated to this world has a threefold course. For by excellent order, it is dispensed from God to Christ, from Christ to the Virgin, from the Virgin to us.' [Internal quote from S. Bernardine, Sermon on Nativity of B. V. M. n. 6.] Leo XIII, Parta humano generi, Apostolic Letter, Sept 8, 1901, ASS 34, 1901, 195. So may the most powerful Virgin Mother, who once 'cooperated in love that the faithful might be born in the Church', be even now the means and mediatrix of our salvation. [Citing St. Augustine, De sancta Virginitate 6.] Vatican II, Lumen gentium ## 61-62. ... in suffering with Him as He died on the cross, she cooperated in the work of the Savior, in an altogether singular way, by obedience, faith, hope, and burning love, to restore supernatural life to souls. As a result she is our Mother in the order of grace. This motherhood of Mary in the economy of grace lasts without interruption, from the consent which she gave in faith at the annunciation, and which she unhesitatingly bore with under the cross, even to the perpetual consummation of all the elect. For after being assumed into heaven, she has not put aside this saving function, but by her manifold intercession, she continues to win the gifts of eternal salvation for us. By her motherly love, she takes care of the brothers of her Son who are still in pilgrimage and in dangers and difficulties, until they be led through to the happy fatherland. For this reason, the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adiutrix, and Mediatrix. This however it to be so understood that it takes nothing away, or adds nothing to the dignity and efficacy of Christ the one Mediator. For no creature can ever be put on the same level with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer.... There more stuff on this website if you are intrested [url="http://www.ewtn.com/faith/Teachings/marya4a.htm"]http://www.ewtn.com/faith/Teachings/marya4a.htm[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorphRC Posted June 12, 2004 Author Share Posted June 12, 2004 [quote name='P3chrmd' date='Jun 12 2004, 09:45 AM'] Just curious Morph...are you catholic? [/quote] No. I formly rebuked Christianity yesterday. All forms. Its complicated, quick understanding: I believe it as historical, thats it. I dont really care for this subject anymore. Believe what you want, Ive only been unhappy and unfulfilled in christianity. cya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P3chrmd Posted June 12, 2004 Share Posted June 12, 2004 Oh Im sorry Morph...you are in my prayers! I hope that you find the peace and happiness you are searching for in Christ eventually though! :-) God Bless, Brandon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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