Is It A God Given Right To Teminate A Pregnancy

[fides' Jack]

Hmm, you raise a good question. My instinctual answer is yeah, probably. But I think the driving factors between the two are different. Id be curious what your thoughts are! Although I dont want to derail the thread too much! :P

 

My thoughts on the matter are that they are different, but I just wanted to throw that out there to maybe spark someone's thinking about why we should outlaw abortion.

 

Abortion is the direct killing of a person, and is inherently evil in itself, so yes, it should be outlawed.

 

Guns are not evil in themselves, and can and are used for very constructive things (literally - in fact, the only type of gunpowder-based gun I've used is what this blog post is about).  And I don't think you need to have a special permit or license or background check to use one of those.

[Socrates]

I just find it a huge stumbling block when Catholics grapple with the word "need" in this situation. The need for abortion. It seems that we need to discuss this before getting to the meat of the matter. 

 

Do you understand why I say need? Do you understand why women get abortions? Do you think they do it with the intention "I want to kill my child." No, of course not!

 

The reasons are "I cannot afford another child" "I cannot emotionally handle my personal relationships"  etc. The reasons are real life reasons. Please do not take my explanation as a justification, it is not. I am not in any way trying to justify having an abortion. I am merely trying to reach out and understand why they happen. 

 

That is how logical problem solving works. You find the cause of a problem, eliminate the cause, and you wont have your problem anymore. People are so focused on the legality of the issue. That wont do poo to help save the babies. Abortions will still happen because we never addressed the need.

 

I mean sure, if you can get abortion banned thats totes fine. But youll STILL have to eliminate the need if you want them to stop. You can object all you want and run in circles, but at the end of the day, you have to eliminate the need. 

 

In other words, there is not a true need for abortion, in the correct sense of the word.

 

This is not to say that women considering abortion do not oftentimes have real and serious problems, nor to trivialize their dilemma.  

I'm just saying that babies do not need to be killed.

 

The truth is, the reasons for getting abortions range from the truly desperate and heartbreaking to the purely selfish, and even depraved, and include everything in between.  The same can also be said about the reasons for committing other murders, thefts, and other crimes, but that doesn't mean such acts should not be illegal.

 

And again, I never said that we shouldn't do more to help women in crisis pregnancies and help them make the right choice.

(I just don't buy into the naive notion that if only we have more of xyz social programs or whatever, abortion will simply go away, and laws will be completely unnecessary.)

 

In this fallen world, there will always be situations in which abortion will seem the more desirable option.

Just as there is always a "need" for murder and theft.  Still, justice demands that we work to make the law protect all innocent human beings.

 

 

 

Remember, I am not fighting to keep abortion legal, I am merely offering noting that there are two ways in which this needs to be handled. Catholics seem ignore that practical side and only gnaw and scream for the legality side. There is a bigger picture that people need to realize; it needs to be addressed. 

 

Except this has nothing to do with reality, at least as I've experienced it.  In the ultra-conservative, traditional pro-life parishes I've belonged to, there's a lot of support for crisis pregnancy centers and groups helping women in difficult pregnancies.  In my parish. we pray for individual women considering abortion at every mass.

The people I've known who have been most actively involved in the practical side of helping pregnant mothers have also been staunchly pro-life on the legal side.

 

You're attacking a straw-man caricature.

 

(But, yeah, we pro-life Catholics do spend a lot of time screaming and gnawing on things.  This distinguishes us from "pro-choice" progressives, who prefer to howl and foam at the mouth.)

[Socrates]

My thoughts on the matter are that they are different, but I just wanted to throw that out there to maybe spark someone's thinking about why we should outlaw abortion.

 

Abortion is the direct killing of a person, and is inherently evil in itself, so yes, it should be outlawed.

 

Guns are not evil in themselves, and can and are used for very constructive things (literally - in fact, the only type of gunpowder-based gun I've used is what this blog post is about).  And I don't think you need to have a special permit or license or background check to use one of those.

 

Exactly.  (I was going to post something similar, but you beat me to it.)

Murder of any person, born or unborn, is inherently evil and unjust.  Owning a gun is not.

 

That's not a trivial distinction.

 

 

Though I would say that "pro-life" liberals who oppose laws against abortion on the grounds that "they won't do anything," yet also support "gun control" laws, are inconsistent in their logic.

 

(I actually do think anti-gun legislation will have some deterrent effect, though it would overwhelmingly deter law-abiding citizens, rather than murderous criminals.  It would just shift the balance of power more to the "bad guys," while punishing those with no evil intent.)

[Norseman82]

Yes, I can see your point. Both of them together is something we should work towards. Make abortion illegal, and cultivate a culture of life...ei somehow fix our broken political system to reduce to increasing inequality gap. Help families who need help as well as the women who are of child bearing age to make the best decision. 

 

Education education education!

 

I understand we all have to do both.  The question is what will we be able to achieve first?  Do we try to change the hearts in the hope that the changes in the law will follow, or can we get the law changed as quickly as possible to get as many babies out of danger? 

 

Additionally, if we want to address the ultimate root cause of abortion, let's address people having sex when they shouldn't be.

[CrossCuT]

There are many political things you can vote on to help nurture a culture of life besides just banning abortion. 

Increase funding to schools, aid programs, charities, etc etc. Stop big corporations from exploiting tax loop holes by going over seas. That will allow for more funding to go to programs that help mothers and children in need among other things!

[add]

There are many political things you can vote on to help nurture a culture of life besides just banning abortion.
Increase funding to schools, aid programs, charities, etc etc. Stop big corporations from exploiting tax loop holes by going over seas. That will allow for more funding to go to programs that help mothers and children in need among other things!

All of the ideas that you listed will not help society one fig.
The depravity of our modern society is due to a lack of faith. and christian faith and due to the practicing of deviant life styles.

Worshiping the philosophy of Jesus Christ and sincerely practicing the sacraments is the only way to achieve happiness, on earth as it is in heaven Edited August 12, 2014 by add

[Socrates]

There are many political things you can vote on to help nurture a culture of life besides just banning abortion. 

Increase funding to schools, aid programs, charities, etc etc. Stop big corporations from exploiting tax loop holes by going over seas. That will allow for more funding to go to programs that help mothers and children in need among other things!

 

For many decades, we've been spending more and more on our public school system, with less and less to show for it.  (Quite a racket the NEA has going there, along with other public sector unions.)

And as far as I can see, ever-increasing amounts of tax money at the public school system hasn't done squat to end abortion.  Neither have the vast increases in federal spending on "anti-poverty" welfare programs since the 1960s.

In fact, there were a lot fewer abortions back in the "bad old days" when most states had laws against abortion, and much less money was spent on schools and other government programs.

 

And the surest way to get corporations from moving overseas (and prevent foreign companies from investing in America) is to keep raising taxes and government red tape.  (But that's getting into another topic.)

 

 

I apologize if I'm wrong, but I'm getting a "you pro-life Catholics need to stop worrying about the legality of abortion, and instead just vote Democrat" vibe here.

[Socrates]

All of the ideas that you listed will not help society one fig.
The depravity of our modern society is due to a lack of faith. and christian faith and due to the practicing of deviant life styles.

Worshiping the philosophy of Jesus Christ and sincerely practicing the sacraments is the only way to achieve happiness, on earth as it is in heaven

 

What?! 

 

You mean to suggest there are problems that further increases in federal taxing and spending won't fix??

 

How dare you utter such heresy!

 

(And how dare you inject your religious morality into these issues!)

Edited August 13, 2014 by Socrates

[Norseman82]

There are many political things you can vote on to help nurture a culture of life besides just banning abortion. 

Increase funding to schools, aid programs, charities, etc etc. Stop big corporations from exploiting tax loop holes by going over seas. That will allow for more funding to go to programs that help mothers and children in need among other things!

 

Unfortunately, that attitude can end up diverting efforts away from political advances in fighting abortion.  People can soothe their consciences over voting for a pro-abortion candidate by saying to themselves "Gee, he's anti-nuclear weapons, pro-universal health insurance, anti-death penalty, pro-working people - so he's pro-life too!". 

 

Additionally, none of the above programs does a child any good if the child doesn't make it out of the womb alive. 

[CrossCuT]

le sigh

Edited August 13, 2014 by CrossCuT

[add]

What?!

You mean to suggest there are problems that further increases in federal taxing and spending won't fix??

How dare you utter such heresy!

(And how dare you inject your religious morality into these issues!)

Surely you jest

[Socrates]

Unfortunately, that attitude can end up diverting efforts away from political advances in fighting abortion.  People can soothe their consciences over voting for a pro-abortion candidate by saying to themselves "Gee, he's anti-nuclear weapons, pro-universal health insurance, anti-death penalty, pro-working people - so he's pro-life too!". 

 

Additionally, none of the above programs does a child any good if the child doesn't make it out of the womb alive. 

 

And the reality is that policies of the prog/libs in power haven't done jack squat to actually improve the lot of working people.  Union members are getting screwed over royally by Obamacare and losing their great benefit plans, and countless more people are having to pay greatly improved premiums.  (To give just one example).

 

And the surest way to get corporations to move overseas (and prevent foreign companies from investing in America) is to keep raising taxes and government red tape.  (But that's getting into another topic.)

Corrected.  Must be getting prematurely senile.

 

Surely you jest

 

Me jest?  

Outrageous!

 

 

 

And stop calling me Shirley.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Socrates

[Socrates]

  Union members are getting screwed over royally by Obamacare and losing their great benefit plans, and countless more people are having to pay greatly improved increased premiums.  (To give just one example).

 

 

I'm either going insane, or someone's been messing with my posts.

[veritasluxmea]

All of the ideas that you listed will not help society one fig.

What? 

 

As Christians- As the Church Militant- We should be champions of the poor, downtrodden, oppressed, helpless, and most of all, life, from conception to natural death. Anything we can do to make society a better, more just, merciful, healthier place, we should do it. Sure, a baby whale is not as precious as a baby human, but it is on the scale nonetheless. I agree we need to get our priorities in order- and them take care of them. All of them. Our prayer and beliefs is nothing if our actions do not follow up. Faith without works is dead. 

 

 

The depravity of our modern society is due to a lack of faith. and christian faith and due to the practicing of deviant life styles.

 

Worshiping the philosophy of Jesus Christ and sincerely practicing the sacraments is the only way to achieve happiness, on earth as it is in heaven

I agree with you wholeheartedly. 

[Socrates]

 

What? 

 

As Christians- As the Church Militant- We should be champions of the poor, downtrodden, oppressed, helpless, and most of all, life, from conception to natural death. Anything we can do to make society a better, more just, merciful, healthier place, we should do it.

 

The disagreement regards the belief that more federal taxes and spending, and an ever-growing welfare state, is really the best way to help the poor and downtrodden.

 

Saint John Paul II (among others) was quite skeptical.