Ice_nine Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 I honestly do not believe that birth control is an inherently bad thing at all That would be where we disagree. Where we would agree is that someone may use contraception with good intentions, out of ignorance or a poorly-formed conscience. I believe that God sees the heart of the people involved, and if He chooses to be merciful out of pity for His creatures than that is His prerogative. I never begrudge God's mercy and I try not to begrudge His judgments. That doesn't mean that contraception suddenly becomes OK or is sanctified by a person's good intentions, just that intentions are likely taken into account when God makes His judgements concerning the personal guilt of the subject.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrossCuT Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 That would be where we disagree. Where we would agree is that someone may use contraception with good intentions, out of ignorance or a poorly-formed conscience. I believe that God sees the heart of the people involved, and if He chooses to be merciful out of pity for His creatures than that is His prerogative. I never begrudge God's mercy and I try not to begrudge His judgments. That doesn't mean that contraception suddenly becomes OK or is sanctified by a person's good intentions, just that intentions are likely taken into account when God makes His judgements concerning the personal guilt of the subject.. I assume you also find it permissible for someone to take it for medical reasons as well? Which does not fall into the categories of assuming someone is ignorant or poorly-formed. (which I find rather insulting to a lot of women who choose to use it for very personal reasons but I guess you are the ultimate judge of those things if you find it so easy to pass that assumption). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice_nine Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 I agree with you that actions and words should match up. But I dont think that they are mutually exclusive...if that makes sense. Even if person A does something that person B views as wrong doesnt mean that the action is wrong. It has a lot to do with A's intentions, disposition, knowledge, etc etc etc. Not only that, but if the very nature of the action is misunderstood by both parties it becomes even harder to come to a conclusion. But some (many) actions are objectively wrong. This is a basic tenet of Christianity. People are able to justify all sorts of horrible things because they have good intentions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice_nine Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 I assume you also find it permissible for someone to take it for medical reasons as well? Which does not fall into the categories of assuming someone is ignorant or poorly-formed. (which I find rather insulting to a lot of women who choose to use it for very personal reasons but I guess you are the ultimate judge of those things if you find it so easy to pass that assumption). I thought using the word "contraception" instead of "birth control" made things clear enough. To use anything for contraceptive purposes is wrong. I don't know if using the pill for medical purposes while sexually active is morally OK. I'm sure that's been discussed I just don't know if it falls under "double effect" or some other such principle as I am just an idiot on the internet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrossCuT Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 But some (many) actions are objectively wrong. This is a basic tenet of Christianity. People are able to justify all sorts of horrible things because they have good intentions. You can view birth control as being bad, evil, the Antichrist, or whatever all you want, but please keep your judgments of others to yourself. Judge the object all you want, but do not let it to start dictating your feelings of a person that will degrade their integrity. I think that is wrong. I thought using the word "contraception" instead of "birth control" made things clear enough. To use anything for contraceptive purposes is wrong. I don't know if using the pill for medical purposes while sexually active is morally OK. I'm sure that's been discussed I just don't know if it falls under "double effect" or some other such principle as I am just an idiot on the internet. Are you referring to different things when you use contraception vs birth control? Or rather referring to different mentalities? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice_nine Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 maybe it's terminology. When people say I'm using birth control, they often mean I or my partner is taking a hormonal contraceptive e.g.the pill. Using the pill to trreat a medical condition is not the same as using it for contraception. Like I said, I don't know if it's licit for someone using the pill to treat a medical condition should also engage in sexual activity. I think it would be OK, of course there's a lot of room for self-deception (believing you are using the pill solely for medical purposes when in actuality you really don't want to have kids). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice_nine Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 but do not let it to start dictating your feelings of a person that will degrade their integrity. huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrossCuT Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 huh? Things have a ripple effect. At first you say the object is bad...then it goes to there is something wrong with he people (as you mentioned above how they are mal formed or whatever)...and then it ripples further into marginalizing people. Thats just how it happens so we have to be careful of our thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrossCuT Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 maybe it's terminology. When people say I'm using birth control, they often mean I or my partner is taking a hormonal contraceptive e.g.the pill. Using the pill to trreat a medical condition is not the same as using it for contraception. Like I said, I don't know if it's licit for someone using the pill to treat a medical condition should also engage in sexual activity. I think it would be OK, of course there's a lot of room for self-deception (believing you are using the pill solely for medical purposes when in actuality you really don't want to have kids). I am sure different pools of thought are more or less strict a specific term but I admit I use them interchangeably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice_nine Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Things have a ripple effect. At first you say the object is bad...then it goes to there is something wrong with he people (as you mentioned above how they are mal formed or whatever)...and then it ripples further into marginalizing people. Thats just how it happens so we have to be careful of our thoughts. If I say that there are objectively moral and objectively immoral acts then it follows that there is something *wrong* with someone who does something morally egregious. Saying someone has a poorly-formed conscience is more a more generous explanation. Not sure why you recoil at that. It's better than saying person x knows they're doing evil and a) is indifferent or b) enjoys it c)hates God etc. But it's logically incoherent to claim that there are objective morals and then say nothing is wrong with those who flout these laws. What does not follow is that saying any of this means my conscience has always been perfectly formed, or even that it is now, so I'm not sure how this marginalizes anyone? Making a critique on someone (especially abstract hypothetical somones) doesn't mean I think I'm above that critique. In other words, there's something wrong with me, God willing I am working towards being less wrong. You seem to find basic Christian tenets offensive. It also seems that you are unable to grasp how people can point out the sin in others without belittling or "marginalizing" a person. It can be done, and is done, all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrossCuT Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 If I say that there are objectively moral and objectively immoral acts then it follows that there is something *wrong* with someone who does something morally egregious. Saying someone has a poorly-formed conscience is more a more generous explanation. Not sure why you recoil at that. It's better than saying person x knows they're doing evil and a) is indifferent or b) enjoys it c)hates God etc. But it's logically incoherent to claim that there are objective morals and then say nothing is wrong with those who flout these laws. What does not follow is that saying any of this means my conscience has always been perfectly formed, or even that it is now, so I'm not sure how this marginalizes anyone? Making a critique on someone (especially abstract hypothetical somones) doesn't mean I think I'm above that critique. In other words, there's something wrong with me, God willing I am working towards being less wrong. You seem to find basic Christian tenets offensive. It also seems that you are unable to grasp how people can point out the sin in others without belittling or "marginalizing" a person. It can be done, and is done, all the time. Im just saying watch out for the ripples. Ive seen it numerous times. One mentality leads to another if we dont keep our thoughts and hearts in check. There have been church militant who respond to these types of things with direct assault on the person and not so much the sin. It can often turn into a fine line and that is my biggest objection. Not saying you are doing that, just saying that your thoughts are the stone that starts the ripples. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice_nine Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Im just saying watch out for the ripples. Ive seen it numerous times. One mentality leads to another if we dont keep our thoughts and hearts in check. There have been church militant who respond to these types of things with direct assault on the person and not so much the sin. It can often turn into a fine line and that is my biggest objection. Not saying you are doing that, just saying that your thoughts are the stone that starts the ripples. I don't think I can be responsible for these "ripples" that might occur in others from speaking in line with the truth of the church, just as someone who speaks about the mercy of God cannot be responsible for those who might thereafter presume God's mercy and/or assume sin is a quaint, antiquated notion that doesn't apply any more. As for these "ripples" manifesting within myself, that's a probability regardless of my mentality as human nature is prone to pride and pride seeks to raise oneself above the other. Surely if you don't keep your pride in check you will become a smug, self-satisfied arse whether you are a pc hippie liberal or a hellfire preaching neo-con. Nonetheless, there will be people who take offense if you insinuate that there's something wrong with someone else, and that's essentially what I'm doing when I proclaim a moral truth. On the same token however, I'm also keenly aware that I have many faults and shortcomings myself. As for church militants berating others, well we're human. It happens. It happens with folks of your ilk too. I can't tell you how many times I've been disparaged by someone who preaches tolerance, love, and acceptance. It's not ok, but it wouldn't hurt anyone to grow some thicker skin. People suck sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrossCuT Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 As for these "ripples" manifesting within myself, that's a probability regardless of my mentality as human nature is prone to pride and pride seeks to raise oneself above the other. Surely if you don't keep your pride in check you will become a smug, self-satisfied arse whether you are a pc hippie liberal or a hellfire preaching neo-con. Well at least we agree that these things can ripple. Although I wouldnt resort to name calling but whatev. Im very content being a pc hippie liberal preaching love and tolerance! :) Kumbaya my friend! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 WE AGREE! LET THEM MAKE THEIR OWN DECISIONS!!!!!!!!! Excellent! Now you can join me in opposing socialized medicine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrossCuT Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 Woah woah, I dont even know what youre talking about! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now