Various Customs

[Hemma]

@ Bride of the Lamb: Perhaps the professed nuns have linen ones and wash them too... :lol4: Sorry I can't help...

A friend of mine used such due to medical intolerances and made good experiences. But she hadn't to share them with others.  :hehe2: 

Have you been in closer contact to them? Just for my interest.

 

In my former community we had a cupboard in the bathroom with all necessary supply (shampoo, shower gel, sanitary napkins...). Every sister took what she needed. There's no danger for misuse. Why should one.

 

@Twohearts: Most true...

[emma8201986]

Twohearts - I agree. I wouldn't like a community that treats its sisters like children to instill obedience when men, who presumably learn the same obedience, do not. Maybe there was a reason for that a few hundred years ago but not today.

[Hemma]

However you can't neglect fundamental differences between men and women. This is not tradition, it's nature.

Edited August 1, 2014 by Senensis

[MarieLynn]

In the Order that I was once part of, from our first weeks as a postulant right the way thru to Final Vows and beyond, we were required to ask permission from our Superiors for the use of everything, and I mean everything.    Handkerchiefs, SN's, shampoo, toothpaste, soap, pens, paper, permission to cut our hair, write letters - the list was endless.  To obtain another roll of toilet tissue, we had to bring the hard cardboard inner core, to prove to Mother that it did in fact need replacing.   It was designed to teach us humility and obedience, and to bend our wills to those of our Superior, who was God's representative.   This was in the 1960's, and  the practice of having to "ask" for everything, had been in force since the Order's foundation some 100 years earler.   

 

After Vat 2, and  Cardinal Suenens paper on the role of the nun in the modern world had been released, the heirachy of the Order went back to the spirit of their founder, and along with many of the more archaic traditions, that the Order finally felt held no religious significance, and had just been handed down over time  as de rigeur,  the practice was discontinued, and a common cupboard was established where Sisters helped themselves to what was needed, when it was needed.

 

The older sisters had a harder time adapting to this new method than we younger ones, but it was almost liberating (didn't know that word existed until many years later)  the first time I went to this cupboard and took out a cake of soap without first having to ask permission!  

 

[AccountDeleted]

In the Order that I was once part of, from our first weeks as a postulant right the way thru to Final Vows and beyond, we were required to ask permission from our Superiors for the use of everything, and I mean everything.    Handkerchiefs, SN's, shampoo, toothpaste, soap, pens, paper, permission to cut our hair, write letters - the list was endless.  To obtain another roll of toilet tissue, we had to bring the hard cardboard inner core, to prove to Mother that it did in fact need replacing.   It was designed to teach us humility and obedience, and to bend our wills to those of our Superior, who was God's representative.   This was in the 1960's, and  the practice of having to "ask" for everything, had been in force since the Order's foundation some 100 years earler.   

 

After Vat 2, and  Cardinal Suenens paper on the role of the nun in the modern world had been released, the heirachy of the Order went back to the spirit of their founder, and along with many of the more archaic traditions, that the Order finally felt held no religious significance, and had just been handed down over time  as de rigeur,  the practice was discontinued, and a common cupboard was established where Sisters helped themselves to what was needed, when it was needed.

 

The older sisters had a harder time adapting to this new method than we younger ones, but it was almost liberating (didn't know that word existed until many years later)  the first time I went to this cupboard and took out a cake of soap without first having to ask permission!  

 

 

I was in a 1990 Carmel in England where they still require sisters to ask for toilet paper. It was called 'pocket paper' and we were given one toilet roll, which we left in our cells. We tore off the amount we thought we would need for that day and put it in our pocket to use. When the roll ran out, we had to ask for another. Once, when I asked for another roll, I was chastised for using too much and told that 3 pieces should be sufficient each time I used the toilet. It was very embarrassing, I have to admit.

 

We also had to ask permission each time we wanted a drink of water, even though we had a jug in our cell. We had to ask permission to use that water as well. Every single little thing we used required permission -- and that convent is still doing it that way today as far as I know (I was there in 2009).

 

My community now thankfully doesn't monitor my toilet paper use! :p

[OnlySunshine]

I was in a 1990 Carmel in England where they still require sisters to ask for toilet paper. It was called 'pocket paper' and we were given one toilet roll, which we left in our cells. We tore off the amount we thought we would need for that day and put it in our pocket to use. When the roll ran out, we had to ask for another. Once, when I asked for another roll, I was chastised for using too much and told that 3 pieces should be sufficient each time I used the toilet. It was very embarrassing, I have to admit.

 

We also had to ask permission each time we wanted a drink of water, even though we had a jug in our cell. We had to ask permission to use that water as well. Every single little thing we used required permission -- and that convent is still doing it that way today as far as I know (I was there in 2009).

 

My community now thankfully doesn't monitor my toilet paper use! :P

 

I really wouldn't be able to put up with some of the rules of obedience in some strict communities.  I know obedience is important, but when you have to ask about things that are basic human needs, it gets a little weird.  That's why I think I'd fit better in a "middle of the road" community where obedience is required for things that aren't necessary.  Humility is important but I think asking about everything would be humiliating in an embarrassing way.  But that's just me and I'm glad I know my limitations.  ;)

[twohearts]

Yes, we had to ask permission for everything & I mean everything! We used folded diapers as sanitary pads. They were first washed by us & then put in the community wash.

We washed our uncut hair only twice a month & took a bath 2xs a week. Our daily habits were washed only twice a year. We asked permission to use the toilet & drink water.

There was no end to it. Still, you know what? We were happy! We hardly ever were ill either....Of course everything changed w/time....

[Nunsuch]

I think there is a big and important difference between humility and humilitation....

[brandelynmarie]

Agreed. :)

[Credo in Deum]

Twohearts - I agree. I wouldn't like a community that treats its sisters like children to instill obedience when men, who presumably learn the same obedience, do not. Maybe there was a reason for that a few hundred years ago but not today.

Maybe the reason for it is to teach detachment? I mean if we're going to let a pair of underwear come between us and heaven then maybe we have our priorities out of order. Plus the vow of poverty should also bring to our minds the situation of many of the homeless who would love to even have a clean pair of underwear, let alone a constant supply of it, regardless of if it is a hand me down or someone else's. I mean just for them to know that they would have a constant supply of said clean underwear would probably make them cry with joy. Edited August 2, 2014 by Credo in Deum

[emma8201986]

I think we're getting into a very good discussion here and would like to hear more opinions. Someone can ALWAYS say "well, for Jesus you can do anything - put up with any penance or humiliation." I don't agree because we are all still human beings with all the faults and weaknesses of other people. We also live in the 21st century and have different frames of references than say, St. Therese. The humiliation and stress of having to worry about asking for an extra 2 or 3 pieces of TP is unnecessary and ridiculous. I think every community can find many ways of teaching obedience and humility that don't involve humiliation (which it just occurred to me this minute - are 2 different things that sound similar). I hope that if I persevere in religious life, I will learn to be humble and obedient to superiors. I hope they do not humiliate me by these trite, outdated and superfluous practices. Your thoughts??

[Credo in Deum]

My thoughts are we are way too sensitive these days. We see humiliation because of our pride. We don't stop to think about how unreasonable it is to hold the belief that a religious community sets up their practices to humiliate their members rather than humble them. Furthermore I worry when I hear people say things like "outdated" and "superfluous". I guess I'm this way because I have seen them applied to the Liturgy and even religious life itself. IMO I think religious life calls those who are in it to go that extra mile. To give that little bit more. To be misunderstood by the world and to completely die to our own will and openly accept the guidance of God through the superiors He has put in place in the community.

[beatitude]

My thoughts are we are way too sensitive these days. We see humiliation because of our pride. We don't stop to think about how unreasonable it is to hold the belief that a religious community sets up their practices to humiliate their members rather than humble them. Furthermore I worry when I hear people say things like "outdated" and "superfluous". I guess I'm this way because I have seen them applied to the Liturgy and even religious life itself. IMO I think religious life calls those who are in it to go that extra mile. To give that little bit more. To be misunderstood by the world and to completely die to our own will and openly accept the guidance of God through the superiors He has put in place in the community.

 

I would be cautious with this line of thought, as it's easy to confuse going the extra mile with doing really extraordinary things (like eating on your knees for a penance, or having to ask for every sanitary pad you use). Many people might find those things easy. I know I wouldn't be too bothered by them. Others might even find a kind of romantic glory in them. I have spoken to a Carmelite nun, an experienced novice mistress who has been in religious life for over seventy years, who told me that pre-Vatican II she felt it was too easy for a novice to actively seek out 'dramatic' penances and practices in the belief that these were what mattered most. She identified this as a temptation during her own novitiate, and she said that scrupulous adherence to dozens of visible religious practices that we would now consider humiliating could actually feed pride and competition. It's worth noting that certain practices have been identified as outdated or superfluous by men and women who have lived religious life for a long time and discerned that these things are not so valuable to their community, and I think we need to trust their judgment on that.

 

'Going the extra mile' could be the simplest of things, like letting another sister take the last helping of feast-day apple crumble when you have a cold and you miss home and you really really want that crumble. It's not so visible, but its invisibility may make it an even harder cross to take - there is no one to look on you with sympathy or understanding, no chance to seem holy and humble in the eyes of others, no consolation at all. It's a completely hidden mortification and for many people this will be far harder than the toilet paper regimen that Nunsense described!

[Credo in Deum]

I would be cautious with this line of thought, as it's easy to confuse going the extra mile with doing really extraordinary things (like eating on your knees for a penance, or having to ask for every sanitary pad you use). Many people might find those things easy. I know I wouldn't be too bothered by them. Others might even find a kind of romantic glory in them. I have spoken to a Carmelite nun, an experienced novice mistress who has been in religious life for over seventy years, who told me that pre-Vatican II she felt it was too easy for a novice to actively seek out 'dramatic' penances and practices in the belief that these were what mattered most. She identified this as a temptation during her own novitiate, and she said that scrupulous adherence to dozens of visible religious practices that we would now consider humiliating could actually feed pride and competition. It's worth noting that certain practices have been identified as outdated or superfluous by men and women who have lived religious life for a long time and discerned that these things are not so valuable to their community, and I think we need to trust their judgment on that.

'Going the extra mile' could be the simplest of things, like letting another sister take the last helping of feast-day apple crumble when you have a cold and you miss home and you really really want that crumble. It's not so visible, but its invisibility may make it an even harder cross to take - there is no one to look on you with sympathy or understanding, no chance to seem holy and humble in the eyes of others, no consolation at all. It's a completely hidden mortification and for many people this will be far harder than the toilet paper regimen that Nunsense described!

I agree. In the Gospels Christ bids us to go that extra mile for charity sake not for recognition. We are to not seek out extreme penances or extraordinary things. However if these things find us and are given to us by our superiors then we are to not ignore them or find fault with them. If someone does not want to share underwear than that is fine. Acknowledge this and do not join the community. No one is forcing people to join or stay. If we do not understand these practices and their usefulness, then we should accept that without mocking them. Edited August 3, 2014 by Credo in Deum

[Sister Marie]

I really wouldn't be able to put up with some of the rules of obedience in some strict communities.  I know obedience is important, but when you have to ask about things that are basic human needs, it gets a little weird.  That's why I think I'd fit better in a "middle of the road" community where obedience is required for things that aren't necessary.  Humility is important but I think asking about everything would be humiliating in an embarrassing way.  But that's just me and I'm glad I know my limitations.  ;)

 

Coming at this from the perspective of apostolic religious life...I have not ever had to ask for necessary personal items in religious life.  While I do believe I could do it, I don't believe it would help me become a holier religious.  New shoes, new habits, money for school books, permission to go out and things like that are all things that I ask permission for but, honestly, it is really not a conscious submission to obedience that permeates those requests.  It's just the way we do things so it becomes just another one of the normal tasks of my life.  I know that being obedient in little things helps us to be obedient in bigger things but that doesn't mean that every little thing needs to be controlled.  One of the most touching experiences of obedience for me is when I was discerning with my congregation a big decision in my life.  For months, I did not know whether what I felt very strongly in my heart would be permitted by my superiors and so I waited, I prayed, I researched, I waited, I had conversations, I prayed, and I lived my daily life until an answer was given.  It was one of the most difficult but most grace filled periods in my life because I felt an intense desire to follow what I believed was God's will for me but I had to be free enough in obedience to know that I could be wrong about God's will OR I could be right and the congregation might still disagree and, in obedience, I would have to accept that decision.  It was a holy struggle for me and God was so intensely present to me.  Asking for small permissions seems insignificant when I compare it to that experience.  That is not to say that God is not present in the small struggles of obedience either - God certainly is present there too! 

I think we're getting into a very good discussion here and would like to hear more opinions. Someone can ALWAYS say "well, for Jesus you can do anything - put up with any penance or humiliation." I don't agree because we are all still human beings with all the faults and weaknesses of other people. We also live in the 21st century and have different frames of references than say, St. Therese. The humiliation and stress of having to worry about asking for an extra 2 or 3 pieces of TP is unnecessary and ridiculous. I think every community can find many ways of teaching obedience and humility that don't involve humiliation (which it just occurred to me this minute - are 2 different things that sound similar). I hope that if I persevere in religious life, I will learn to be humble and obedient to superiors. I hope they do not humiliate me by these trite, outdated and superfluous practices. Your thoughts??

I think it is interesting that you and Mater both used the phrase "put up with."  When I think of asking for sanitary napkins or toilet paper, "putting up with" would certainly be the phrase I would use too.  You probably can "put up with" many things for Jesus.  However, while "putting up with" these things can you because of them; be joyful? love fully and deeply? stretch grow and change? become more fully your truest self? give that truest self away to someone not of your choosing? If you can become these things by putting up with asking for TP or sanitary napkins, then by all means do it!  If I look at my truest self though - I would be simply "putting up with" an annoying practice if these were the things that obedience was made of.  Obedience is a search for freedom.  Each community has a different way of searching for that freedom and I guess that is part of the discernment... can I get that freedom through these practices?  

My thoughts are we are way too sensitive these days. We see humiliation because of our pride. We don't stop to think about how unreasonable it is to hold the belief that a religious community sets up their practices to humiliate their members rather than humble them. Furthermore I worry when I hear people say things like "outdated" and "superfluous". I guess I'm this way because I have seen them applied to the Liturgy and even religious life itself. IMO I think religious life calls those who are in it to go that extra mile. To give that little bit more. To be misunderstood by the world and to completely die to our own will and openly accept the guidance of God through the superiors He has put in place in the community.

I agree that we see humiliation sometimes because of our pride - and that that is part of the human experience.  It is unreasonable to believe that a community "sets up their practices to humiliate their members rather than humble them."  I don't believe that any community sets out to humiliate the members - but good intentions do not guarantee that humiliation does not occur.  I would find some of the practices already written about humiliating - not because the community wanted to humiliate me but because some of these practices seem to me to deny the very natural need for privacy and modesty as regards the body.  That is my personal feeling - perhaps others feel differently.  I just know it isn't for me - but that does not mean that I am not trying for the extra mile and it does not mean that I do not want to follow God's will.  Religious life is one way of life to grow in holiness - religious, priests, married men and women, single men and women (and any other vocation!) are called to radical holiness - to go the extra mile!  No one is exempt from the call of Jesus to radical discipleship!  We do this by cultivating the freedom to follow God's will in the constructs of our state of life not by observing external rules.      

I would be cautious with this line of thought, as it's easy to confuse going the extra mile with doing really extraordinary things (like eating on your knees for a penance, or having to ask for every sanitary pad you use). Many people might find those things easy. I know I wouldn't be too bothered by them. Others might even find a kind of romantic glory in them. I have spoken to a Carmelite nun, an experienced novice mistress who has been in religious life for over seventy years, who told me that pre-Vatican II she felt it was too easy for a novice to actively seek out 'dramatic' penances and practices in the belief that these were what mattered most. She identified this as a temptation during her own novitiate, and she said that scrupulous adherence to dozens of visible religious practices that we would now consider humiliating could actually feed pride and competition. It's worth noting that certain practices have been identified as outdated or superfluous by men and women who have lived religious life for a long time and discerned that these things are not so valuable to their community, and I think we need to trust their judgment on that.

 

'Going the extra mile' could be the simplest of things, like letting another sister take the last helping of feast-day apple crumble when you have a cold and you miss home and you really really want that crumble. It's not so visible, but its invisibility may make it an even harder cross to take - there is no one to look on you with sympathy or understanding, no chance to seem holy and humble in the eyes of others, no consolation at all. It's a completely hidden mortification and for many people this will be far harder than the toilet paper regimen that Nunsense described!

I agree completely!

I agree. In the Gospels Christ bids us to go that extra mile for charity sake not for recognition. We are to not seek out extreme penances or extraordinary things. However if these things find us and are given to us by our superiors then we are to not ignore them or find fault with them. If someone does not want to share underwear than that is fine. Acknowledge this and do not join the community. No one is forcing people to join or stay. If we do not understand these practices and their usefulness, then we should accept that without mocking them.

Remember, the Gospels are for us all - not just religious and priests!  Whatever practice a community has, it must be about more than these small practices and rules.  I don't see anyone mocking anyone else... and I see no fault in questioning the hygiene of such a practice as sharing underwear.  To me, it seems like a silly thing to hang my salvation on either way.  Loving a sister I dislike, agreeing to work with her in close quarters day in and day out, denying what my own heart has told me is God's will, waiting in patience to hear where I will be sent... these are the meat for me of obedience.  These are the obediences that shape my life - that stretch me, call me, give me passion, give me love, and free me.