Why Is Transgender(ism ?) Homosexuality Not A Mental Disorder

[PhuturePriest]

I think that given the lack of evidence or even lack of understanding of these conditions means we should always be charitable and be ready to give the benefit of the doubt instead of jumping instantly to "Evil evil sinner!!"

 

Not knowing the cause of something or why it exists does not make it any less sinful. There are people who are naturally inclined to kill themselves, and we know many of the psychological and physical reasons why. That doesn't make it any less of a bad thing to kill yourself. The Church doesn't go "Oh, it's because your brain is out of whack? That's okay, then!"

Edited July 28, 2014 by FuturePriest387

[CrossCuT]

Not knowing the cause of something or why it exists does not make it any less sinful.

 

I dont think its sinful. 

[Perigrina]

However, in reference to your comments about you believing these people are tormented...I understand why you would say that but I feel like this is slightly different than the often used comparison to anorexia. Anorexia is a condition that can be life threatening because it is very unhealthy for the individual; these people suffer physical and mentally. It would make sense to do what we can to help them because they are suffering, they are lost, and they are slowing hurting themselves because of their condition. Transgenders however are tormented when they are not the gender they feel they should be. Upon switching however, or at least identifying as the opposite gender, they often feel more comfortable, confident, and more able to interact in society.

 

I cited an article earlier by a psychiatrist who quoted various studies which indicated that switching did not have favourable psychological outcomes.  What are you basing your opposing opinion on?

 

 

Its a difficult subject to approach because like we both agree, we dont fully understand it yet. And while I know you feel morally obligated to express your rejection of what you perceive as a sin by calling Clare by her male name, I feel that you are doing a disservice to Claire, to yourself, and to your goal of helping people. I feel that even while you think youre doing the right thing, you are cultivating animosity between the church and transgenders. I dont mean to say that is something you do on purpose, I just think that it is a result. 

 

 

I did not say anything about rejecting sin.  I have been saying that one does not tell a transsexual that he is a woman for the same reason that one does not tell underweight anorexics that they are fat.  It is not good for people to help them to deny reality.

 

It is unfortunate if this leads to animosity, but one is obliged to oppose a movement that stands in the way of people getting the help they need.

 

You are basing your opinion of how well-adjusted Timothy is on a relatively small sample of posts.  I have seen his posts on multiple forums over several years.  You very well might have a different opinion under those circumstances.  

Edited July 28, 2014 by Perigrina

[PhuturePriest]

I dont think its sinful. 

 

Something Lilllabett and I debated with you for eons and you kept denying.

[CrossCuT]

Well I am not under any obligation to agree with you. I consider everything people say even if you dont believe it, but I havent come across anything someone has said to me to make be believe that transgenders or homosexuals actions are inherently evil or immoral. 

 

If you are really interested in saving me, maybe you could change your tactics. I really enjoy colors; Im a visual person.

Edited July 28, 2014 by CrossCuT

[PhuturePriest]

Well I am not under any obligation to agree with you. 

 

When did I say or imply you were?

 

Anyway, can you tell me why you think homosexual relationships are good, and why you don't see transgenderism as a mental disorder?

[CrossCuT]

When did I say or imply you were?

 

Anyway, can you tell me why you think homosexual relationships are good, and why you don't see transgenderism as a mental disorder?

 

I think they are acceptable because I dont think they are bad. Im pretty sure Clare did not have the intention of "OM.G who can I piss off today by becoming a woman?"

 

Also dont wannt derail the thread. You can make another topic if you want. I dont want this thread to turn into a FP goes after CC thing.

Edited July 28, 2014 by CrossCuT

[Perigrina]

I think they are acceptable because I dont think they are bad. Im pretty sure Clare did not have the intention of "OM.G who can I piss off today by becoming a woman?"

 

You might not think that if you saw his "coming out" post on the forum I mentioned.

[PhuturePriest]

I think they are acceptable because I dont think they are bad. Im pretty sure Clare did not have the intention of "OM.G who can I piss off today by becoming a woman?"

 

Also dont wannt derail the thread. You can make another topic if you want. I dont want this thread to turn into a FP goes after CC thing.

 

So things are made acceptable and good if you don't do them with the intention of pissing people off?

[Perigrina]

Revealing the faults of another, without a very good reason to do so, is a serious sin, so I do not want to go into any details about what I know about Timothy until I have a chance to really think it through.  But I must say something now.  I saw a forum to which I had a strong attachment badly hurt by Timothy's insistence on being addressed as a woman.  This happened largely because he was able to play on the forum owner's compassion, much as he is playing on Cross Cut's.  When he succeeded in getting the owner to back up his self-identity, many people were banned or voluntarily left that forum.  The owner lost significant financial support and is still struggling to recover.  Many people were hurt and confused.  I have not seen any drama here comparable to Trannygate.

 

This is not an issue of dogma versus compassion.  It is real compassion versus false compassion.  It is false compassion to support sick people in a delusion.  It hurts them and many others as well.

[veritasluxmea]

So your saying we should treat people like people 

Yes 

and not use garbage like "Natural law" 

Natural Law=/= "It's natural, therefore it's good and harmless!" 

 

as an excuse for discrimination? 

Who said anything about discrimination? Gays have the same human rights as everyone else. Except to harmful behavior, like everyone else. 

Thank you you're my hero.

You're very welcome. 

[CrossCuT]

You might not think that if you saw his "coming out" post on the forum I mentioned.

 

Revealing the faults of another, without a very good reason to do so, is a serious sin, so I do not want to go into any details about what I know about Timothy until I have a chance to really think it through. 

 

I think that is a very very very wise decision. I was rather taken aback by your attempts to gossip or and defame Clare. I dont think its up to you to decide share her personal story here on Phatmass. If Claire wants to it is up to her. 

 

Also I would appreciate it if you didnt write off my thoughts on the matter as compassion for another person. As if that having compassion is somehow a bad thing anyway. I am an individual with my own thoughts and I resent the notion that you feel you can so easily diminish that by your own personal prejudice on the subject. Dont project that situation onto me. What happened on that board has nothing to do with the conversation we are having now (at least I have nothing to do with it, but you seem to insist on bringing it up).

 

This discussion was actually quite nice and very informative until people started tossing out personal lashes. 

Edited July 28, 2014 by CrossCuT

[Ice_nine]

This discussion was actually quite nice and very informative until people started tossing out personal lashes. 

 

You might want to start taking things less personally. Over and over again I see you frown at perceived malice that just isn't there. I assume you'll take offense at this response, but I really do get a smidge irritated when you say other people are being hateful and rude when they aren't.

[Perigrina]

I think that is a very very very wise decision. I was rather taken aback by your attempts to gossip or and defame Clare. I dont think its up to you to decide share her personal story here on Phatmass. If Claire wants to it is up to her. 

 

Also I would appreciate it if you didnt write off my thoughts on the matter as compassion for another person. As if that having compassion is somehow a bad thing anyway. I am an individual with my own thoughts and I resent the notion that you feel you can so easily diminish that by your own personal prejudice on the subject. Dont project that situation onto me. What happened on that board has nothing to do with the conversation we are having now (at least I have nothing to do with it, but you seem to insist on bringing it up).

 

This discussion was actually quite nice and very informative until people started tossing out personal lashes. 

 

Timothy had already revealed that we knew each other on other forums. That was not new information.  In fact, Trannygate has been discussed on this phorum before I came here.

 

False compassion is a bad thing.  Real compassion is, of course, a very good thing.  I am basing my assessment of your motives on your posts here, not on another situation.  However, I am warning you, based on my experience, that bad consequences could come from your attitude.

[CrossCuT]

You might want to start taking things less personally. Over and over again I see you frown at perceived malice that just isn't there. I assume you'll take offense at this response, but I really do get a smidge irritated when you say other people are being hateful and rude when they aren't.

 

I am interested in having adult discussion that dont always crumble down into vendettas after someones personal disposition. I dont see how Clare's present or past treatment of Perigrina have any impact on the topic. It seems like she has using a personal problem as evidence which doesnt seem to be necessary. 

 

And I dont know how you dont think that accusing me of being a compassionate wishy wash to degrade my integrity is not a personal lash. I dont know why the projection has anything to do with what I think on the topic. do you? Maybe you think its ok? Should I start doing that as well? Find something personal about you and use it against you in a discussion?