Why Is Transgender(ism ?) Homosexuality Not A Mental Disorder

[Credo in Deum]

I understand your argument, but science is indifferent. It says "This is natural", its a fact. The church and morality however fill in what they think is moral. The church can look at natural phenomena and say "Hmm, this is probably not good" or "this is amesome!" They cant however say something is unnatural in the physical world because it is not in ther realm of expertice.

So what? The Church dictates what is a disorder and what is not based on Natural Law; the law which applies to humans who are made both body and soul, with an intellect and a will. The law in which humans must follow to fulfill the purpose for which they are made; to love, honor, and serve God. Take for example: Lemmings. They jump off of a cliff and into the ocean where they die. This is natural for them. They are made with this inclination and their instincts drive them to that end. It's not a disorder for them because they do not have free will and cannot deny their instincts. Now let's say a small percent of humans were created with this same inclination and let's say the cause for this is genetic. However even though it's genetic, it has not removed their ability to deny their natural inclinations. Now let's say some of these humans have decided to follow this inclination. They say because it's natural they should be allowed to act it out. Would you actually still hold that their conscious decision to follow this natural inclination was not disordered, even despite the fact that they could have chosen not to follow it? Edited July 27, 2014 by Credo in Deum

[Perigrina]

Thank you for contributing a new perspective to the discussion Clare! I am very curious about the studies that have been done on this topic and I intend to read the ones you posted as soon as I get a chance! I am aware of androgens and what role they play in development as well as maintaining an adult body, but I feel there is still a genetic basis to the trans mentality - or why they feel they are a different gender than their physical body. No functions or characteristics are just magical happenstances; there is a root to everything.

 

 

Even if it turns out that abnormal androgen levels during fetal development are a significant factor in causing transgenderism, this does not prove that surgery is a good treatment for it.  The empirical evidence regarding that question suggests that surgery is ineffective and that pschological treatment is required.

 

This is not surprising.  In my experience, post-operative transsexuals rarely look attractive or believable in their chosen sex.  It is extremely difficult for them to find partners with normal sexuality, although some people have kinks that draw them to the sexually unusual.   Surgery does nothing to prevent transsexuals from facing lives filled with loneliness and unhappiness.  It is no wonder they have the suicide rate that they do.

 

Since this condition has been politicized and framed as a matter of rights, nothing is being done to actually help them.  The movement is based on the unfounded assumption that surgery will help these people and they have a right to it.  Any compassionate person should be objecting to it.

[Ice_nine]

No, that's the criteria for a disability, not a mental illness. There's a difference. Anorexia is a mental illness which is not (usually) a disability. Paralysis is a disability which is not a mental illness. Depression is both a mental illness and (sometimes) a disability. 

 

Since you bring up depression:
 

Major Depressive Disorder requires two or more major depressive episodes.

Diagnostic criteria:

Depressed mood and/or loss of interest or pleasure in life activities for at least 2 weeks and at least five of the following symptoms that cause clinically significant impairment in social, work, or other important areas of functioning almost every day

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK64063/

 

Similar language is used in nearly all (if not all) diagnoses. I've studied abnormal psych a bit.

Edited July 27, 2014 by Ice_nine

[CrossCuT]

So what? The Church dictates what is a disorder and what is not based on Natural Law; the law which applies to humans who are made both body and soul, with an intellect and a will. The law in which humans must follow to fulfill the purpose for which they are made; to love, honor, and serve God. Take for example: Lemmings. They jump off of a cliff and into the ocean where they die. This is natural for them. They are made with this inclination and their instincts drive them to that end. It's not a disorder for them because they do not have free will and cannot deny their instincts. Now let's say a small percent of humans were created with this same inclination and let's say the cause for this is genetic. However even though it's genetic, it has not removed their ability to deny their natural inclinations. Now let's say some of these humans have decided to follow this inclination. They say because it's natural they should be allowed to act it out. Would you actually still hold that their conscious decision to follow this natural inclination was not disordered, even despite the fact that they could have chosen not to follow it?

 

I dont think the Church has any sort of monopoly on "dictating" what is or isnt a disorder...especially not based on Natural Law. Remember the church is a spiritual institution. If they want to say that homosexuality or transgenderism is immoral (which of course they already do), then great! That is within their area of expertise. However I dont believe the church has the authority to define what is and isnt a disorder any more than I have the authority to dictate the science of worm holes or dark matter.

 

I also think your definition regarding the lemmings and animals vs humans is sketchy...its your opinion of course, but its kind of weird. Humans are animals. We simply have a free will. Would you go so far as to say that the rest of the animal kingdom minus humans have 0 disorders then?

I also dont think that free will is the single and only deciding factor between disorder and non disorder. Maybe you can elaborate.

[CrossCuT]

Even if it turns out that abnormal androgen levels during fetal development are a significant factor in causing transgenderism, this does not prove that surgery is a good treatment for it.  The empirical evidence regarding that question suggests that surgery is ineffective and that pschological treatment is required.

Did you mean to reply to me? I didnt mention anything about what is and isnt good treatment for transgenderism.

[Perigrina]

Did you mean to reply to me? I didnt mention anything about what is and isnt good treatment for transgenderism.

 

I was just riffing on your mention of androgens.  It was not a direct reply.

[Credo in Deum]

I dont think the Church has any sort of monopoly on "dictating" what is or isnt a disorder...especially not based on Natural Law. Remember the church is a spiritual institution. If they want to say that homosexuality or transgenderism is immoral (which of course they already do), then great! That is within their area of expertise. However I dont believe the church has the authority to define what is and isnt a disorder any more than I have the authority to dictate the science of worm holes or dark matter.

Where has the Church claimed homosexuality or transgenderism is immoral? The Church, as far as I am aware of, has only claimed homosexual acts are immoral and should not be acted on, as well as acts relating to transgenderism.

I also think your definition regarding the lemmings and animals vs humans is sketchy...its your opinion of course, but its kind of weird. Humans are animals. We simply have a free will.

I love how you down play how amazing free will actual is by using the word "simply". Free will is the very thing which separates us from all of the animals on the planet. It is what makes us responsible for our actions. Maybe you should stop and think about how different life would be if we were to rid ourselves of such a trait. You might appreciate it more.

Would you go so far as to say that the rest of the animal kingdom minus humans have 0 disorders then?

How can animals have disorders pertaining to the Natural Law of mankind?

I also dont think that free will is the single and only deciding factor between disorder and non disorder. Maybe you can elaborate.

It is when it pertains to the Natural Law of mankind. Edited July 27, 2014 by Credo in Deum

[Clare Brigid]

Where has the Church claimed homosexuality or transgenderism is immoral? The Church, as far as I am aware of, has only claimed homosexual acts are immoral and should not be acted on, as well as acts relating to transgenderism.

The Church does not yet have an official, definitive teaching on whether medical treatment of transsexualism (hormones and surgery) is immoral.

 

The Church has taught definitively on the morality of homosexual acts.

Edited July 27, 2014 by Clare Brigid

[CrossCuT]

Where has the Church claimed homosexuality or transgenderism is immoral? The Church, as far as I am aware of, has only claimed homosexual acts are immoral and should not be acted on, as well as acts relating to transgenderism.

 

Youre absolutely correct! Forgive me for not being specific enough. 

 

 

 

I love how you down play how amazing free will actual is by using the word "simply". Free will is the very thing which separates us from all of the animals on the planet. It is what makes us responsible for our actions. Maybe you should stop and think about how different life would be if we were to rid ourselves of such a trait. You might appreciate it more.

Free will is the bees knees. Id probably never want to give it up unless it was for a huge bag of cheddar popcorn or maybe a Robyn concert in Tokyo.

 

 

 

How can animals have disorders pertaining to the Natural Law of mankind?

Is that your context?

 

 

 

It is when it pertains to the Natural Law of mankind.

How many Natural Laws are there? Legit question.

[Ice_nine]

 

How many Natural Laws are there? Legit question.

 

42

[CrossCuT]

I figured it was something like that. Are there any that dictate that its natural to want to eat a gallon of ice cream every day? I just want to feel normal.

[Perigrina]

The Church does not yet have an official, definitive teaching on whether medical treatment of transsexualism (hormones and surgery) is immoral.

 

Given the lack of evidence that hormones and surgery are helpful or effective, this falls under general Church teaching concerning drugs and mutilation.  And there is no question that it is immoral that the transgender movement promotes these treatments at the expense of psychological treatment thereby causing so much human suffering.  

 

We do not really need an explicit teaching when there are basic principles that already apply.

[CrossCuT]

I think that given the lack of evidence or even lack of understanding of these conditions means we should always be charitable and be ready to give the benefit of the doubt instead of jumping instantly to "Evil evil sinner!!"

[Perigrina]

I think that given the lack of evidence or even lack of understanding of these conditions means we should always be charitable and be ready to give the benefit of the doubt instead of jumping instantly to "Evil evil sinner!!"

 

I hope you don't think that I have said anything about "evil evil sinner".  My position throughout this thread has been that the transgendered are tormented people who need help.  The only evil that I have identified is the movement that politicizes their condition in a way that interferes with them receiving the help they need.  

 

Imagine there were a movement that tried to make it illegal to tell anorexics that they are not really fat.  That tried to make it impossible to advise them to try anything other than diet or weight loss surgery.  That prevented research into effective psychological treatments for them.  Imagine that anyone who told anorexics they are not really fat was demonized as an evil bigot.  That is analogous to the current situation with transgenderism.

 

I knew Clare Brigid on another forum by his baptismal name of Timothy back when he identified himself as a man. When he declared that he was a woman now, I tried to be supportive and called him by his new name.  After some months and much thought, I came to the conclusion that the right thing to do was to refuse to recognize this sex change.  The forum owner took the position that Timothy should follow his conscience on this matter, but those who believed it was a mistake could not follow theirs.  I was banned from that forum (which was the owner's right) and labeled as a bad person for my stance.    

 

I was not given the benefit of the doubt.

[CrossCuT]

I hope you don't think that I have said anything about "evil evil sinner".  My position throughout this thread has been that the transgendered are tormented people who need help.  The only evil that I have identified is the movement that politicizes their condition in a way that interferes with them receiving the help they need.  

 

Imagine there were a movement that tried to make it illegal to tell anorexics that they are not really fat.  That tried to make it impossible to advise them to try anything other than diet or weight loss surgery.  That prevented research into effective psychological treatments for them.  Imagine that anyone who told anorexics they are not really fat was demonized as an evil bigot.  That is analogous to the current situation with transgenderism.

 

I knew Clare Brigid on another forum by his baptismal name of Timothy back when he identified himself as a man. When he declared that he was a woman now, I tried to be supportive and called him by his new name.  After some months and much thought, I came to the conclusion that the right thing to do was to refuse to recognize this sex change.  The forum owner took the position that Timothy should follow his conscience on this matter, but those who believed it was a mistake could not follow theirs.  I was banned from that forum (which was the owner's right) and labeled as a bad person for my stance.    

 

I was not given the benefit of the doubt.

 

I apologize Perigrina, I didnt mean to insinuate that you were condemning transgenders, I suppose I used the phrase as more of a thematic device because I often have a flare for the dramatic.  :paperbag:

 

However, in reference to your comments about you believing these people are tormented...I understand why you would say that but I feel like this is slightly different than the often used comparison to anorexia. Anorexia is a condition that can be life threatening because it is very unhealthy for the individual; these people suffer physical and mentally. It would make sense to do what we can to help them because they are suffering, they are lost, and they are slowing hurting themselves because of their condition. Transgenders however are tormented when they are not the gender they feel they should be. Upon switching however, or at least identifying as the opposite gender, they often feel more comfortable, confident, and more able to interact in society.

 

This condition does not cause the same sort of physical threat to their body as anorexia does so there is not the same sense of danger there (ei not eating vs changing body parts does not incur nearly the sense of urgency). Although the mental threat can pose a similar problem however that is entirely subjective. There are some transgenders who likely go through absolute hell trying to understand what is going on vs some who are very very well adjusted.

 

Although I am sure you would argue something alone the lines that torment of the soul or a moral precept is also included your definition of torment and that it does not necessarily mean just physical or mental.

 

Its a difficult subject to approach because like we both agree, we dont fully understand it yet. And while I know you feel morally obligated to express your rejection of what you perceive as a sin by calling Clare by her male name, I feel that you are doing a disservice to Claire, to yourself, and to your goal of helping people. I feel that even while you think youre doing the right thing, you are cultivating animosity between the church and transgenders. I dont mean to say that is something you do on purpose, I just think that it is a result. 

 

We need to be supportive as much as possible when we know that people are not experiencing the torment we think they should be. I cant speak for Clare, but she appears to be well adjusted and not deserving of being considered tormented. If anything, I feel that would cause her to distance herself from whatever help you are trying to give her. 

 

And like I said before, all of this is my opinion based on the fact that we dont fully understand this yet. I am being as open minded as possible.