Why Is Transgender(ism ?) Homosexuality Not A Mental Disorder

[Ice_nine]

I see no need to pathologize everything. Change can come without therapy. True story.

[CrossCuT]

Ok

[Luigi]

You might be right, I do not claim to understand the motives of the church as an institution, but I do know they have faltered in the scientific arena in the past. I do have a small glimmer of hope that someday they will look past all of this and learn to integrate homosexuals into the community in a healthy and productive way. As of right now, they are only harboring resentment and fear which translates into a lot of other bad outcomes. 

 

All I can do is sit and wait for the church to catch up I suppose.

 

See that's the thing. The Church views proper sexuality as unitive and productive (they use the word generative). But homosexuality is not productive. In that way, it's like masturbation. 

[Clare Brigid]

Does the Church consider being a transgender person or homosexuality a mental disorder; why or why not.

 

Thusly, if the Church does consider both to be a mental disorder versus why doesn't the Church simply state that position publicly ? ( I assume for the Church to publicly label both such would be a P.R nightmare and would probably cause more problems than the issue is worth )

 

Superblue, I am a transwoman (a male-to-female transsexual).  I would like to contribute my knowledge and experience on this topic to the discussion.

 

The Catholic Church does not have an official teaching on transsexualism.  That will surprise many people, but it's a fact.  You will hear many bishops, priests and theologians giving their opinion on this subject, applying general principles of natural law and certain moral prohibitions (e.g., against mutilation of the body).  They are doing their best to guide Catholics on this issue, but the Church has not taught definitively.

 

The Vatican sent a document sub secretum (under secrecy) to apostolic nuncios around the world in 2000; later, in 2003, it sent the document to the heads of the various national bishops conferences.  The document is alleged to state that transsexualism is a mental disorder and that the sex of transsexuals for canonical purposes should not be considered to have been actually changed.  (Therefore, baptismal certificates should never be changed; female-to-male transsexuals cannot be ordained; transssexuals cannot marry.)  It also says that transsexuals should not be allowed to enter religious life.  On the other hand, the document says that sex reassignment surgery can be morally permissible "in certain extreme cases" where it would cure the person's inner turmoil.  The document is summarized in an article from Catholic News Service, an arm of the USCCB, and republished by the National Catholic Reporter:  http://ncronline.org/news/vatican-says-sex-change-operation-does-not-change-persons-gender.

 

This is not official teaching and therefore it does not bind anyone.  The Church needed to address certain situations in the interim, however, so it did so privately.

 

Later today, I'll post here some of the latest research on the cause of transsexualism.  It is not a psychiatric condition in the sense that many people think.  (It is not a delusion, for instance.)  Mounting scientific evidence shows that most transsexuals have brain structures characteristic of the other sex.  Here's why.  The hormonal environment in the womb determines the brain sex during the second half of pregnancy, after the genitals have been formed in the fetus.  For XY males, there is an androgen bath that is supposed to take place.  This masculinizes the brain.  If this is impeded or does not happen, the brain remains female, which is the default sex.

 

This is not a psychiatric condition.  It is a medical condition, analogous to intersex conditions.

 

On the other hand, there are certainly co-morbidities, like depression, in transsexuals.  This should not be a surprise.

 

Also, there is a subset of transsexuals who are autogynephilic.  They are men attracted to women who develop a fetish:  they imagine themselves as lesbians, basically.  This often starts with crossdressing and progresses.  I would say that these people have a mental disorder.

Edited July 26, 2014 by Clare Brigid

[Perigrina]

This is not a psychiatric condition.  It is a medical condition, analogous to intersex conditions.

 

This view is popular among transexuals, but it is by no means established science at this point.  It is just one theory that is out there among others. 

 

Personally I find more plausible the theory that it it is a psychiatric condition analogous to anorexia.  As you may know, anorexics are convinced that their body is overweight when this is not the reality and often harm themselves with dieting.Similarly, people with gender dysphoria are convinced that they are a sex that does not correspond to reality and mutilate their bodies.

 

Here is an article 

http://tinyurl.com/nfngtmz

 

As this article describes, surgery does not seem to help these people.

 

You won't hear it from those championing transgender equality, but controlled and follow-up studies reveal fundamental problems with this movement. When children who reported transgender feelings were tracked without medical or surgical treatment at both Vanderbilt University and London's Portman Clinic, 70%-80% of them spontaneously lost those feelings. Some 25% did have persisting feelings; what differentiates those individuals remains to be discerned.

We at Johns Hopkins University—which in the 1960s was the first American medical center to venture into "sex-reassignment surgery"—launched a study in the 1970s comparing the outcomes of transgendered people who had the surgery with the outcomes of those who did not. Most of the surgically treated patients described themselves as "satisfied" by the results, but their subsequent psycho-social adjustments were no better than those who didn't have the surgery. And so at Hopkins we stopped doing sex-reassignment surgery, since producing a "satisfied" but still troubled patient seemed an inadequate reason for surgically amputating normal organs.

 

 

The sub secretum document supposedly allows for surgery in extreme cases where it will prevent suicide but the article mentioned above cites a study which throws this reason into question:

 

 

 

 The long-term study—up to 30 years—followed 324 people who had sex-reassignment surgery. The study revealed that beginning about 10 years after having the surgery, the transgendered began to experience increasing mental difficulties. Most shockingly, their suicide mortality rose almost 20-fold above the comparable nontransgender population. This disturbing result has as yet no explanation but probably reflects the growing sense of isolation reported by the aging transgendered after surgery. The high suicide rate certainly challenges the surgery prescription.

 

As I see it, the evidence points to these people having serious psychiatric problems.  Tragically, due to the politicization of this condition, those who wish to help these people are labeled as hateful bigots.  Surgery is being treated as a solution which prevents the development of effective treatments.  

 

Pope Francis was recently reported to have referred to "gender ideology" - the movement that treats surgery as a solution- as demonic.  I can certainly see why he would say that.  Here is an article: http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/austrian-bishop-pope-francis-told-me-gender-ideology-is-demonic

 

Some interesting quotes:

 

 

“In response to my questioning, Pope Francis said, ‘Gender ideology is demonic!’” Laun wrote in his essay, adding that the pope was not exaggerating in his comment.  “Indeed, gender ideology is the destruction of persons, which is why Pope Francis was justified in calling it demonic,” he said.

 

In doing so, the pope follows in the footsteps of his predecessor, Pope Benedict XVI. Nearing the end of his pontificate, the pope emeritus spoke twice about gender ideology as “a negative trend for humankind,” and a “profound falsehood,” which “it is the duty of pastors of the Church” to put the faithful “on guard against.”

Edited July 26, 2014 by Perigrina

[Clare Brigid]

People who are interested in the most recent scientific evidence on the causation of transsexualism can begin here:

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B139zFO1lHFXNDVlMWFlNDYtOGM2Yi00YmMxLTkxYmEtMDM2MGQ5MjQ5ZTM2/edit?ddrp=1&pli=1&hl=en#

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexualism#Biological-based_theories

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html#.U8wGEIBdWaE

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306453005001770

 

The gender ideology to which Pope Francis refers is the idea that gender is malleable and a matter of choice.  The experience of transsexuals is precisely the contrary.  And that is their dilemma.

 

A young Catholic transwoman who has a blog on being both Catholic and transsexual offers a good explanation of the current state of Church teaching on transsexualism:  http://catholictrans.wordpress.com/2013/12/07/what-does-the-catholic-church-actually-say-about-transgenderism/

 

[Perigrina]

The gender ideology to which Pope Francis refers is the idea that gender is malleable and a matter of choice.  The experience of transsexuals is precisely the contrary.  And that is their dilemma.

 

The experience of anorexics is not a good way to determine whether they are really overweight.  Neither is the experience of transsexuals a good way to determine reality.  

 

There is nothing conclusive in the "the most recent scientific research" about causes of this disorder.  Even if there were some physiological basis, this would not mean we should not treat it as a psychological disorder.  In the case of depression, for example, the physiological and psychological elements are linked. 

[Clare Brigid]

Perigrina, I read your profile just now.  Aren't you JayneK from Fisheaters, CathInfo and SuscipeDomine?  I'm surprised to see you here at PhatMass!   :bananahi:

Edited July 26, 2014 by Clare Brigid

[Perigrina]

Yes I am.  I'm not sure why you are surprised.  I suppose I am a bit old for Phatmass, but it is a good fit for me in terms of theological positions.

[Clare Brigid]

Personally I find more plausible the theory . . . 

 

What you find personally more plausible is information about you, but it does not provide the rest of us with objective evidence.

 

And putting "the most recent scientific research" in quotes will not change the fact that it is the most recent scientific research.

 

I would encourage people who are interested in this issue to read the current research for themselves, rather than rely on Perigrina's characterizations or subjective feelings of plausibility.

Edited July 26, 2014 by Clare Brigid

[Perigrina]

Of course, anyone who is interested should read the studies for themselves.  Keep in mind that politically incorrect theories are less likely to get funding or have positive results published.

[Benedictus]

Welcome Clare -  glad to see your input here :smile4:
 

 

This is not a psychiatric condition.  It is a medical condition, analogous to intersex conditions.

 

Can I just point out that psychiatry isn't seperate from medicine; psychiatrists are medical doctors etc. I know people often divide mind and body but many psychiatric disorders have a physical cause, and vice versa. They are interrelated most of the time, not distinct. The most important thing is that the issue is understood, not which branch of medicine deals with it.



 

[Benedictus]

Pope Francis was recently reported to have referred to "gender ideology" - the movement that treats surgery as a solution- as demonic.  I can certainly see why he would say that.  Here is an article: http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/austrian-bishop-pope-francis-told-me-gender-ideology-is-demonic

 

Gender ideology, which is heavily glossed over here, isn't simply about transgender issues. Maybe this isn't a surprise from a media outlet! But it could cover other things besides: women's issues, gender binary, roles, cultural dress, non gender normative behaviours etc. Gender shouldn't be confused with a persons physical sex either. I would have liked to see the Pope engage with specialists in the area and then say something, maybe in a report. Maybe that's a bit much to expect! :think:

[add]

Discrimination against  Christians with or without mental disorders is also wrong.

You just need to get over their bigotry towards the Christians community. At this point it's becoming laughable.

 

fixed

[CatholicsAreKewl]

DSM-V. They changed it by saying that you are born with it therefore it can't be a mental disorder. My husband has schizophrenia, and it's genetic in his family. So you could say he's had it since birth too, but no one is going to take schizophrenia out of the dsm anytime soon

 

I could be wrong about this, but I don't think that's the reasoning. The studies done on homosexuals show they aren't different from straight jakes in daily functioning. You can be super gay and run a business, keep steady relationships, etc. You can't really do as much if you have schizophrenia and you're experiencing an episode. 

Edited July 26, 2014 by CatholicsAreKewl