Why Is Transgender(ism ?) Homosexuality Not A Mental Disorder

[Aloysius]

Alright, some people here need to cool it.  

 

#1, we generally don't use any offline names here unless people are comfortable using them.  there's millions of reasons for that, from people who want privacy or not to link their offline identity to their Phatmass username, to people who simply feel more comfortable or safe discussing things that way.  so I'm going to call a kaibosh on all this insistence on bringing up people's names... you don't have to refer to anyone by any particular gender specific name or pronoun, no one will make you, but for goodness sake let's not go out of our way to bring up personal information someone doesn't want discussed.  if someone's full profile name would bother your conscience to use, the earlier suggestions of an abbreviation would seem to be a good option... if you do not want to use an abbreviation, then simply don't address them by any name at all.

 

#2, can you leave any and all drama from other boards where it belongs, and keep it at least 39 1/2 feet from these boards.

 

#3, of course there's a valid position that believes that Catholic morality would be against sexual reassignment surgery on the basis of prohibitions on mutilation and what not... there are people who disagree... so welcome to the debate table.  that discussion should focus on the arguments themselves, let's keep it to that if we can, please.

 

#4, it is certainly a spiritual work of mercy to correct a sinner, to point out what you believe is someone's moral error charitably in the hopes of helping that person.  there's a fine line between doing that--in particular contexts when it is appropriate (ie when it is actually constructive or helpful for the moral life of a person), between that kind of good of trying to correct a sinner vs. some kind of heckling of a sinner, some kind of harassing of a sinner.  let's try to keep that line in check.  you can certainly believe someone who has had gender reassignment is still their born-with sex, and you can certainly offer that advice if/when appropriate, but in everyday civil, charitable conversation let's please be polite.  just as, if you had a gay friend, you would NOT in a conversation with them continuously address them as "the gay" or something, but would rather politely treat them as a human being, you should also not harp on that insistently and unconstructively.

 

Okay, so that post was a mix of my personal advice and sentiments with some basic moderating statements, I'll make one post after this distilling to a very clear point what I'm saying as a mod.

[Aloysius]

Alright, so TL;DR, just the mod stuff: don't bring offline names up unless the person you are calling by their offline name is comfortable with you doing so... advice against transgender surgery offered earnestly is perfectly acceptable, but if you detract from civil polite conversation by harping on it, it starts to be harassing and we can't tolerate that kind of nonsense... and please leave past drama nonsense outside, if you have an outside grudge against someone or some complicated history with them, there is an IGNORE feature on these boards.  

[Perigrina]

Alright, so TL;DR, just the mod stuff: don't bring offline names up unless the person you are calling by their offline name is comfortable with you doing so... advice against transgender surgery offered earnestly is perfectly acceptable, but if you detract from civil polite conversation by harping on it, it starts to be harassing and we can't tolerate that kind of nonsense... and please leave past drama nonsense outside, if you have an outside grudge against someone or some complicated history with them, there is an IGNORE feature on these boards.  

 

I accept your ruling.

[CatherineM]

Perigrina- every time transgendered issues come up, I reiterate the party line, and get hate mail. It doesn't matter what the contentious moral issue is, there are those who disagree with the Church's teachings. They believe they are right and they Church is wrong and that someday they will be vindicated.

Some believe that the Church is wrong because it's being run by celibate men, or corrupt pedophiles or even the forces of satan. They think that someday the right Pope will be elected or the bishops will band together to fix stuff and the Church will finally listen to the laity and charge the archaic rules to match the will of modern society.

You and I both know that is never going to happen. They aren't going to give up wanting to do as they please, and the Church isn't going to start teaching lies just to be popular.

[Clare Brigid]

This is from a document published last month by the Catholic Bishops Conference of England and Wales.  The Catholic Church does not yet have a definitive teaching on the permissibility of medical treatment for transsexualism.  However, Catholics everywhere should at least consider the recommendation of the Catholic bishops of England and Wales.  I know, as a transwoman, how much difference even a small amount of consideration or good will has meant to me.  I was extremely heartened to learn of the position of the British bishops:

 

77. Transsexual people face many difficulties before, during and after transitioning to another gender. As such it is recommended to seek guidance on how to [b]make the transitional process as easy as possible[/b]. This could include training for co-workers, as well as reference to medical and social advice.

Edited July 29, 2014 by Clare Brigid

[CrossCuT]

Perigrina- every time transgendered issues come up, I reiterate the party line, and get hate mail. It doesn't matter what the contentious moral issue is, there are those who disagree with the Church's teachings. They believe they are right and they Church is wrong and that someday they will be vindicated.

Some believe that the Church is wrong because it's being run by celibate men, or corrupt pedophiles or even the forces of satan. They think that someday the right Pope will be elected or the bishops will band together to fix stuff and the Church will finally listen to the laity and charge the archaic rules to match the will of modern society.

You and I both know that is never going to happen. They aren't going to give up wanting to do as they please, and the Church isn't going to start teaching lies just to be popular.

 

I think its pretty lame that people send you hate mail about it. 

[Benedictus]

This is from a document published last month by the Catholic Bishops Conference of England and Wales.  The Catholic Church does not yet have a definitive teaching on the permissibility of medical treatment for transsexualism.  However, Catholics everywhere should at least consider the recommendation of the Catholic bishops of England and Wales.  I know, as a transwoman, how much difference even a small amount of consideration or good will has meant to me.  I was extremely heartened to learn of the position of the British bishops:

 

Thanks for link, hadn't seen this guidance. I think they've produced a fair few documents of late to deal with legal changes and new developments in general. The Catholic Bishops Conference of England and Wales has been working (of sorts) on opening up these issues for decades, I think at least since Cardinal Basil Hume (a Benedictine I admired alot) was in office.
They did some joint theological work, not sure how long ago (90's?), with the Church of England. The CofE now has transexual priests, although I believe many were already ordained before the transition process. This may have changed now, not sure.
Anyway the Catholic Church here has employed LGBT people without many problems for a long time. Some say this is because certain posts can't be restricted legally, but there isn't much sign they'd not have employed voluntarily (but that's a refuge for those who disagree I guess).

The Bishops conference, esp Cardinal Nichols, has been supportive (and drawn attention both good and bad) for his support. He has supported pastoral hubs, where groups would meet and have mass. There were attempts to close those and complaints were made to the Vatican. I believe his reaction was to comply with concerns by giving the pastoral hub host church to the ordinariate and he moved the LGBT group into a parish (so they're integrated), under the care of the Jesuits. I think bishops in other dioceses have done the same, placing many groups under the care of religious orders (and outside direct diocese oversight) so they have more freedom.

Edited July 29, 2014 by Benedictus

[CatherineM]

I think its pretty lame that people send you hate mail about it.

Meh. I've been threatened by much scarier guys.

[KnightofChrist]

Below is what the Church actually teaches about gender reassignment, offered in a address by Pope Benedict. Seems rather definitive.

 

"The Chief Rabbi of France, Gilles Bernheim, has shown in a very detailed and profoundly moving study that the attack we are currently experiencing on the true structure of the family, made up of father, mother, and child, goes much deeper. While up to now we regarded a false understanding of the nature of human freedom as one cause of the crisis of the family, it is now becoming clear that the very notion of being – of what being human really means – is being called into question.

 

He quotes the famous saying of Simone de Beauvoir: “one is not born a woman, one becomes so” (on ne naît pas femme, on le devient). These words lay the foundation for what is put forward today under the term “gender” as a new philosophy of sexuality. According to this philosophy, sex is no longer a given element of nature, that man has to accept and personally make sense of: it is a social role that we choose for ourselves, while in the past it was chosen for us by society.

 

The profound falsehood of this theory and of the anthropological revolution contained within it is obvious. People dispute the idea that they have a nature, given by their bodily identity, that serves as a defining element of the human being. They deny their nature and decide that it is not something previously given to them, but that they make it for themselves. According to the biblical creation account, being created by God as male and female pertains to the essence of the human creature. This duality is an essential aspect of what being human is all about, as ordained by God.

 

This very duality as something previously given is what is now disputed. The words of the creation account: “male and female he created them” (Gen 1:27) no longer apply. No, what applies now is this: it was not God who created them male and female – hitherto society did this, now we decide for ourselves. Man and woman as created realities, as the nature of the human being, no longer exist. Man calls his nature into question. From now on he is merely spirit and will. The manipulation of nature, which we deplore today where our environment is concerned, now becomes man’s fundamental choice where he himself is concerned. From now on there is only the abstract human being, who chooses for himself what his nature is to be.

 

Man and woman in their created state as complementary versions of what it means to be human are disputed. But if there is no pre-ordained duality of man and woman in creation, then neither is the family any longer a reality established by creation. Likewise, the child has lost the place he had occupied hitherto and the dignity pertaining to him. Bernheim shows that now, perforce, from being a subject of rights, the child has become an object to which people have a right and which they have a right to obtain.

 

When the freedom to be creative becomes the freedom to create oneself, then necessarily the Maker himself is denied and ultimately man too is stripped of his dignity as a creature of God, as the image of God at the core of his being. The defence of the family is about man himself. And it becomes clear that when God is denied, human dignity also disappears. Whoever defends God is defending man."

 

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2012/december/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20121221_auguri-curia_en.html

[Benedictus]

Below is what the Church actually teaches about gender reassignment, offered in a address by Pope Benedict. Seems rather definitive.

 

"The Chief Rabbi of France, Gilles Bernheim, has shown in a very detailed and profoundly moving study that the attack we are currently experiencing on the true structure of the family, made up of father, mother, and child, goes much deeper. While up to now we regarded a false understanding of the nature of human freedom as one cause of the crisis of the family, it is now becoming clear that the very notion of being – of what being human really means – is being called into question.

 

He quotes the famous saying of Simone de Beauvoir: “one is not born a woman, one becomes so” (on ne naît pas femme, on le devient). These words lay the foundation for what is put forward today under the term “gender” as a new philosophy of sexuality. According to this philosophy, sex is no longer a given element of nature, that man has to accept and personally make sense of: it is a social role that we choose for ourselves, while in the past it was chosen for us by society.

 

The profound falsehood of this theory and of the anthropological revolution contained within it is obvious. People dispute the idea that they have a nature, given by their bodily identity, that serves as a defining element of the human being. They deny their nature and decide that it is not something previously given to them, but that they make it for themselves. According to the biblical creation account, being created by God as male and female pertains to the essence of the human creature. This duality is an essential aspect of what being human is all about, as ordained by God.

 

This very duality as something previously given is what is now disputed. The words of the creation account: “male and female he created them” (Gen 1:27) no longer apply. No, what applies now is this: it was not God who created them male and female – hitherto society did this, now we decide for ourselves. Man and woman as created realities, as the nature of the human being, no longer exist. Man calls his nature into question. From now on he is merely spirit and will. The manipulation of nature, which we deplore today where our environment is concerned, now becomes man’s fundamental choice where he himself is concerned. From now on there is only the abstract human being, who chooses for himself what his nature is to be.

 

Man and woman in their created state as complementary versions of what it means to be human are disputed. But if there is no pre-ordained duality of man and woman in creation, then neither is the family any longer a reality established by creation. Likewise, the child has lost the place he had occupied hitherto and the dignity pertaining to him. Bernheim shows that now, perforce, from being a subject of rights, the child has become an object to which people have a right and which they have a right to obtain.

 

When the freedom to be creative becomes the freedom to create oneself, then necessarily the Maker himself is denied and ultimately man too is stripped of his dignity as a creature of God, as the image of God at the core of his being. The defence of the family is about man himself. And it becomes clear that when God is denied, human dignity also disappears. Whoever defends God is defending man."

 

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2012/december/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20121221_auguri-curia_en.html

 

This doesn't really deal with gender reassignment at all. It's not a definitive teaching. It's a public address regarding the order of nature within the instrinsic expression of the dualistic pattern of the sexes. Basically it's not so much a process or a detachment, but connected with the physical.

I would say to be cautious not to pull out what isn't there.
 

Edited July 30, 2014 by Benedictus

[CrossCuT]

I do not have a lot of personal knowledge on church teaching in this area so I appreciate peoples input! Thanks KoC for posting that! I trust your thoughts on these matters! :)

 

And thanks Benedictus for offering a different perspective! Im pretty lost where it comes to church teaching on this issue so its good to see varying perspectives instead of just one.

[Benedictus]

CrossCut - there isn't a teaching per se, just a patchwork of ideas from here and there used to support a certain view. Unless someone can find an official teaching on headed paper or something, then meh. Even at that point I'm sure many people would pick over the document and discuss its merits and implications :whistle:

Anyway props for being so diplomatic :punk:

[CrossCuT]

I have a hard time deciphering what is church teaching and what isnt in its purest form on here because there are a lot of opinions floating around and a lot of the time our fallen human nature causes us to pass off certain opinions (even as wonderful as they are) as fact. 

 

I wish there was some sort of guide on all that. I have not studied church teaching in college or have any deep understanding of philosophy and how to determine official teaching from a Pope's general comments on various moral aspects...so bleh. Wish the church made it easier for dumb people like me. I only have my elementary and high school knowledge to help me. It would help clear the air on a lot of subjects to see where things were definitive and where they were not. 

 

I think a majority of people on this site have spent their higher education studying Catholic teaching so its easier for them to converse with each other. But I have a hard time keeping up with the deep stuff. 

 

Despite peoples best intentions, it doesnt help me understand the subject better to pass off everything single thing a Pope utters as 100% factual, concrete, indisputable Catholic teaching. But I do appreciate their input. 

Edited July 30, 2014 by CrossCuT

[KnightofChrist]

This doesn't really deal with gender reassignment at all. It's not a definitive teaching. It's a public address regarding the order of nature within the instrinsic expression of the dualistic pattern of the sexes. Basically it's not so much a process or a detachment, but connected with the physical.

I would say to be cautious not to pull out what isn't there.
 

 

Yes in fact it does deal with gender reassignment. Saying it does not when it clearly does leads me to believe you are being misleading or are being  naive. Benedict speaks to those who dispute the gender they have been given, which is what gender reassignment is all about. How this goes against God's creation, He makes us male or female we do not get to change the gender God has given us.

[CatherineM]

I got to hear a speech Benedict gave back in the early 90's in Dallas. He talked about how a senior theologian, in the department he taught in back when he was a new teacher, told him that he didn't think we should teach morality anymore. He thought the rules were too hard to follow, and teaching people the truth set them up for damnation. He thought it was charitable to leave them with undeveloped consciences.

Benedict obviously didn't agree. It is our job to continue teaching the truth even if no one agrees. The problem with gender reassignment, and the Church's teachings on the subject, is that it is so obvious that the Church doesn't think it needs to put out some kind of major encyclical about it. Gender is basic. It is basic natural law, imprinted on our souls by God at the moment of our creation.

If I'm born truthfully believing that I'm a snake, that doesn't mean that I should be allowed to have my arms and legs removed and my tongue forked. Before you say that's ridiculous, remember that there was a time when we as a society knew that trying to surgically change ones gender was also ridiculous.

It normally takes the Church a few centuries to definitively define a teaching. Our canon of the bible was in place in the 400's, but we didn't dogma-ify it until the 1500's. Sex changes are just a few decades old. By the time we get around to dealing formally with the issue, it could be a moot question. We may identify the issue in the brain that causes this mess and have a treatment by then. I certainly hope so because those clients I dealt with struggling with gender issues were given crosses heavier than any I have ever faced.