Faith And Works Debate

[linate]

it's been awhile since i've seen a faith and works debate critiqued from the catholic view. here is my understanding of faith and works, with an interjection of catholic principles. thoughts?

 

the main difference between catholics and protestants in faith and works, should be (there are many varieties of protestants, so i can't speak for all, just what i see as best formulated): catholics teach faith plus works equals justification.... and protestants teach faith equals justification plus works.

 

this is supported i believe it was, by the council of trent, that says that justification increases via works.

 

protestants see justification as a fixed idea, with sanctification increasing in one's life. catholics view sancitifcation and justifiation as directly proportional.

 

of couse, both sides say it's 'grace alone'.... but in regards to how that grace is achieved, the above points better hash that out.

 

the differences in the above theories are more a matter of academic points only, cause we see for practical purposes it's clear a christian should have faith, and works. "must have" faith and works, even. neither theory necessarily describes an overall calculous of good works that must be involved, or even a calculus of faith. to be sure, most on both sides say one should be generally increasting towards God, with maybe some stumbles and ruts here and there.... but most don't define too much in this regard.

 

i sometimes say the catholic view is that "Jesus picks up the slack" in that what you don't acheive in justification, Jesus does, or it is finished in purgatory. (which cleanses both temporal punishment, and some venial sins)

 

i like the protestant version, because it follows the one bible verse "though your sins be like scarlet, they shall be white as snow".... but on the other hand, it is still dung covered by snow. the catholic version calls it what it is, if you are just, you are called just. that's not to say there's something to be said about the 'covering' and legal aspects in protestantism.

i relate side most teachings of st paul to the protestant view, and Jesus to the catholic view. obviously it's how you reconcile those teachings, cause they aren't contradictory. It was galatians or ephesians that said "by faith are ye saved, not of works, lest any man should boast". and it is Jesus who always says things regarding good works for salvation. i'm also reminded of how Abraham was justified in different stories... in Romans, Paul says he was justified by faith.... in James, James says Abraham was justified by works, and "not by faith alone". again, it's all a matter of how you hash out and reconcile all these different teachings.

so do you think i'm hitting all the high notes here, and doing catholic teaching justice?

 

 

Edited July 22, 2014 by linate

[dairygirl4u2c]

It is important to remember that Trent is responding to Marin Luther "saved by faith alone..." so you can expect that they are going to emphasize works. and, they go pretty far in doing so.


Here are highlights from Trent, note 24 and 32:
    Canon 11. If anyone says that men are justified either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ or by the sole remission of sins, excluding grace and charity which is poured into their hearts by the Holy Spirit and inheres in them, or also that the grace which justifies us is only the favour of God, let him be anathema. (see note 1)

    Canon 12. If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, let him be anathema.

    Canon 24. If anyone says that the justice (righteousness) received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of the increase, let him be anathema.

    Canon 30. If anyone says that after the reception of the grace of justification the guilt is so remitted and the debt of eternal punishment so blotted out to every repentant sinner, that no debt of temporal punishment remains to be discharged either in this world or in purgatory before the gates of heaven can be opened, let him be anathema.

    Canon 32. If anyone says that the good works of the one justified are in such manner the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him justified; or that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ (of whom one is a living member), the justified does not truly merit an increase of grace, and eternal life, provided that one dies in the state of grace, the attainment of this eternal life, as well as an increase in glory, let him be anathema.

Rome teaches that God helps man to do good works and hence to be more justfied... Trent elaborates this idea in chapter 16:

    "For, whereas Jesus Christ Himself continually infuses his virtue into the said justified, - as the head into the members, and the vine into the branches, - and this virtue always precedes and accompanies and follows their good works, which without it could not in any wise be pleasing and meritorious before God, - we must believe that nothing further is wanting to the justified, to prevent their being accounted to have, by those very works which have been done in God, fully satisfied the divine law according to the state of this life, and to have truly merited eternal life, to be obtained also in its (due) time, if so be, however, that they depart in grace..."


More Trent:
"the alone formal cause is the justice of God, not that whereby He Himself is just, but that whereby He maketh us just, that, to wit, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind, and we are not only reputed, but are truly called, and are, just"

 is saying we are justified by a renewal, ie by works. "makes us just". not that we are just because of Jesus.

"This disposition, or preparation, is followed by Justification itself, which is not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man, through the voluntary reception of the grace, and of the gifts, whereby man of unjust becomes just, and of an enemy a friend, that so he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting. (Council of Trent, 6th Session, ch. Vii)"

this basically says ..... "justification is renewal of inward man through cooperation with grace". although, the actual statement is vague enough to allow one to think it could be applied to a protestant idea "justification causes an inward renewal....by accepting grace".

the key points are "is renewal" v "causes renewal", and "cooperate with grace" v "accept grace"

Trent
"through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith co-operating with good works, increase in that justice which they have received through the grace of Christ, and are still further justified"

--------------


Isn't justification considered a process within the catholic church? (i know salvation is usually considered a process... but these are distinct ideas, so i am clarifying)

here is the catholic encyclopedia.

"We now come to the different states in the process of justification."

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08573a.htm

i recognize that the encyclopedia is only paraphrasing Trent here at least on the 'process' of justification, and it is important to realize that Dogma is different than an encyclopedia. but still, this should be at least standard teaching, even if one can split hairs about what is actually to the level of "dogma"

but trent did say "makes us just" and has similar verbiage.

i've heard some catholic say "we are justified, and we also increase in justification" which seemed to be somewhat of a cop out. and it deosn't seem to be per se based on catholic dogmatic teachings.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church declares: “Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.”
 

[Basilisa Marie]

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

 

We are saved by the free gift of grace from God, through Christ. Good works can help you grow in faith, and are certainly a fruit of strong faith, but you're not saved by them. 

[Catherine Therese]

Keeping this as uncharacteristically succinct and non-academic as possible, one way of looking at it might be to recognise that:

a) we are saved by gratuitous grace gifted upon us by God by virtue of Christ's salvific mission; and
b) our works enable us to merit a greater capacity to receive grace in this life, and a greater capacity to experience the joys of heaven

Life is a school of love... the only virtue of the three theological virtues that will persist for all eternity. Our works are our attempts to learn the life lesson of love so that we can participate in heaven more fully when the time comes. Remember the thimble/bucket analogy? Works help us grow into buckets rather than thimbles.

[LouisvilleFan]

the main difference between catholics and protestants in faith and works, should be (there are many varieties of protestants, so i can't speak for all, just what i see as best formulated): catholics teach faith plus works equals justification.... and protestants teach faith equals justification plus works.

 

this is supported i believe it was, by the council of trent, that says that justification increases via works.

 

protestants see justification as a fixed idea, with sanctification increasing in one's life. catholics view sancitifcation and justifiation as directly proportional.

 

Not an apologist here, but I don't think there is much difference between Catholicism and mainstream Protestantism on justification. Here is where the Catechism of the Catholic Church addresses the topic: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c3a2.htm

 

It seems to agree that justification occurs at some moment, whether that be in Baptism or another time when grace causes a person to reject sin and turn toward God.

 

There is a quote in Paragraph 1989 attributed to Council of Trent that states, "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man." I think this just ties into the idea that we can lose our justification if we aren't being sanctified and renewed. I wouldn't say justification increases -- you either have it or you don't. However, it does run together with our sanctification and can't be separated from it. In other words, sanctification cannot increase without being justified, and you can't be justified without sanctifying grace.

[Clare Brigid]

The Protestant position ignores much of what Our Lord says in the Gospels.  It's not even worth repeating these verses.  We are required to do things -- like care for the poor -- or risk losing our salvation.  Our Lord does not say, "I was hungry and you gave me no food . . . And that showed you had no faith, so depart from me and get over there with the other goats who have no faith."  You did not feed him.

 

It's both/and, not either/or.  I would recommend a look into the Orthodox Christian doctrine of synergy (yes, that's what the call it).  Man and God work together.

Edited July 31, 2014 by Clare Brigid

[CrossCuT]

I was in a non denomination christian group in college a while back and was the only Catholic. There was a girl who apparently was itching to debate me on this topic and sprung it up while we were out having pizza one afternoon.

 

Basically from what I could gather (at least from her perspective) was that we only need Fatih alone...and that having faith causes us to do good works.  Its not that we shouldn't do good works or we dont need to do good works, its that having faith makes us want to do good works. I cannot account for her authority on the topic nor do I remember what denomination she was. But it seemed like in the end we kinda believe the same thing...believe in baby Jesus, be nice, do goodly things, and eat cake. 

 

 

[dairygirl4u2c]

the use of analogies an actually redeem catholic teaching here. if it's like a plant growing saying jusitification increases in one's life makes sense..... as a plant is justified yet grows it also grows in justification. it's not like a video game, where being at level seven means you aren't fully justified instead of being at level ten at the end.

 

in the end though, the fact that catholics teach sin makes one not justified makes a difference significantly. this isn't in the realm of good works per se, but it's still important.

[dairygirl4u2c]

i think i part ways with catholics on the sins point. i agree with teh 'good works' point.

 

when it comes to mortal sin, Paul said there are sins that lead to death, so i tend to agree with catholics

 

how farr a mortal sins goes in causing death of the soul of an indivudual.

 

once it gets into once saved always saved, or 'never saved to begin with', i believe only God can judge, and only God knows.

Edited August 5, 2014 by dairygirl4u2c