Charismatic Catholic

[popestpiusx]

[popestpiusx]

Though a :smoker: and a sound better to me right now.

[dUSt]

I use to be very interested in the Cahrismatic movement, but unfortunately, all my local experiences with it have been bad. It seems that liturgical abuses are common within that movement, and although I don't condemn it as a whole, I strongly caution one to be careful.

[Iacobus]

We got to be careful with almost everything thesedays.

[Apotheoun]

I agree with the previous posters. Caution is called for especially as it concerns liturgical matters and the theology of baptism in the Spirit, which often betrays a Protestant Pentecostal influence.

[Archangel Raphael]

[quote name='myduwigd' date='Jun 8 2004, 11:09 PM'] I am a very charismatic Catholic, and one of the things that makes me so is that I practice some of teh gifts of teh Holy Spirit. When I worship I love to jump around and raise my hands in the air. Some of the gifts that charismatics often recieve and practice are tongues and prophesy and such. Modern day apostles I guess you may call them. And, I've never known a closet charismatic Christian. [/quote]
Heeeyyyy I like the sound of that *wonders if he should consider himself that*

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='myduwigd' date='Jun 8 2004, 11:09 PM'] I am a very charismatic Catholic, and one of the things that makes me so is that I practice some of teh gifts of teh Holy Spirit. When I worship I love to jump around and raise my hands in the air. Some of the gifts that charismatics often recieve and practice are tongues and prophesy and such. Modern day apostles I guess you may call them. And, I've never known a closet charismatic Christian. [/quote]

[p0lar_bear]

The Charismatic Renewal is not something new in the Church, which is why it is called a renewal. What is now called the charismatic movement and what are now called the charismatic gifts have always been part of the life of the Church and are especially evident in the lives of exceptionally holy persons, i.e. saints. The current movement is to encourage awareness in the reality of these gifts and a devotion to the Holy Spirit.

Prayer tongues are different from the gift of tongues that requires an interpreter. If someone is going to speak to the group, as with a message for the group, there does need to be an interpreter there or the group is not edified. However, prayer tongues can be used without interpreters. Either way, these are always real languages, not gibberish, that the speaker does not know. There have been cases where someone who knows an obscure language hears someone praying in tongues and recognizes the language. It can also be a language that is no longer used or is known by only a few people.

While many people do maintain that most if not all people should have a prayer tongue, I disagree with them. However, everyone should be open to it. Everyone should be open to whatever the Lord wants to give them and especially to the movement of the Holy Spirit.

It is important that charismatic groups, as well as any other group, remains fully under the spiritual direction of the Church. Any group that contradicts the Church or defies the legitimate authority of Her ministers is no longer following the Holy Spirit.

There are dangers with this, as there are with any movement. However, if the people are properly catechized and guided on the existence and proper use of the "charismatic" gifts, there is a great benefit to be had not only by those participating, but also by the whole Church.

Both the Holy Father and Cardinal Ratzinger have made statements in favor of the current movement. It is inappropriate, then, for any of the faithful to maintain that the movement is outside of or contrary to the Church.

Devotion to the Holy Spirit is devotion to God. We should be no less eager to have a personal relationship with the Holy Spirit than we are to have one with the Father or the Son. In fact, I would go so far as to say that devotion to the Holy Spirit is required by the faith (something that cannot be said, btw, of Marian devotion). If one has a personal relationship with the Holy Spirit and is open to everything He offers, it seems likely that he will experience a baptism of the Holy Spirit, and receive at least one of the "charismatic" gifts. (That does not mean that it will necessarily be a dramatic event, as often happens within the Charismatic Renewal Movement.) There may be those that God, in His infinite wisdom, chooses not to give any of the "charismatic" gifts. However, I think that the evidence presented by the saints does indicate that the presence of "charismatic" gifts is not outside the norm for a life of holiness.


In a May 30, 1998 audience, the Holy Father said:



[quote]The institutional and charismatic aspects are co-essential as it were to the Church's constitution. They contribute although differently to the life, renewal, and sanctification of God's People. It is from this providential rediscovery of the Church's charismatic dimension that before and after the Council, a remarkable pattern of growth has been established for ecclecial movements and new communities. [/quote]


[quote]Today I would like to cry out to all of you gather here in St. Peter's Square and to all Christians: Open yourselves docily to the gifts of the Spirit! Accept gratefully and obediently the charisms which the Spirit never ceases to bestow on us! [/quote]


[quote]It is essential...that every movement submit to the discernment fo the competent ecclesiastical authority. For this reason no charism can dispense with reference and submission to the Pastors of the Church. The Council wrote in clear words: 'Those who have charge over the Church should judge the genuiness and proper use of these gifts, through their office not indeed to extinquish the Spirit, but to test all things and hold fast to what is good (cf. 1 Thes 5:12; 19-21) (Lumen Gentium, no. 12). This is the necessary guarantee that you are taking the right road.[/quote]

See also his June 24, 1992 General Audience. [url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_pau...19920624en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_pau...19920624en.html[/url]


In their 1997 document "Grace for the New Springtime," the USCCB discussed, and affirmed the Charismatic Renewal. The only quote I already have typed out from the document is regarding the baptism of the Holy Spirit:

[quote]As experienced in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal baptism in the Holy Spirit makes Jesus Christ known and loved as Lord and Savior, establishes or reestablishes an immediacy of relationship with all those persons of the Trinity, and through inner transformation affects the whole of the Christian’s life. There is new life and a new conscious awareness of God’s power and presence. It is a grace experience which touches every dimension of the Church’s life: worship, preaching, teaching, ministry, evangelism, prayer and spirituality, service and community. Because of this, it is our conviction that baptism in the Holy Spirit, understood as the reawakening in Christian experience of the presence and action of the Holy Spirit given in Christian initiation, and manifested in a broad range of charisms, including those closely associated with the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, is part of the normal Christian life. [/quote]

Cardinal Ratzinger's statement is in "The Ratzinger Report." It is a passing mention of new ecclesial movements that are to be commended.

[p0lar_bear]

[quote name='popestpiusx' date='Jun 9 2004, 04:05 PM'] [/quote]
Allo, my name is Inigo Montoya, you killed my father, prepare to die!

[p0lar_bear]

Though the Church has affirmed the legitimacy of the charismatic gifts, not all manifestations are authentic. While it is important to be open to the Spirit, it is also important to discern the true origin of these experiences. The Apostle John warns us, “do no believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world” (1 Jn 4:1). We must test these gifts to discern whether they are from the person, the devil, or God. The discernment of spirits is often listed as a charismatic gift because the Spirit helps us to recognize something as from God or from another source.

Discerning between authentic and inauthentic manifestations can be difficult, especially for someone not acquainted with the manifestations of charismatic gifts. Several keys can aid in the discernment of spirits. Matthew 12:33 tells us “a tree is known by its fruit.” Looking at the fruit of the message and at the fruit of the gift in the life of the person can be telling. The personal sanctity of the person is not an absolute measure. Just as God used Balaam to bless the Israelites and proclaim them as the Chosen People (Num. 22), sinners and unbelievers can receive charismatic gifts. On the other hand, a holy person may mistake his or her own zealousness and emotional responses for authentic gifts. However, those involved with authentic gifts should be drawn into the heart of the Church. Disunity or disobedience to the Church in the name of the Spirit is a contradiction; such a message is not authentic. The Holy Spirit does not lead people into sin, but rather to the Light.

The desire of the person seeking these gifts should also be consistent with the teachings of the Church. The gifts should not be sought so much as the Giver. Authentic gifts are not forms of divination or fortune-telling, and should not be sought as such.

[p0lar_bear]

In discussing the "charismatic gifts," the Holy Father affirms their existence and the need for discernment"

[quote]It should be noted that the charisms require discernment, especially in the case of extraordinary charisms. This discernment is given by the same Holy Spirit, who guides the intellect along the way of truth and wisdom. Since the whole ecclesial community has been placed by Christ under the leadership of the ecclesiastical authority, this latter is responsible for judging the value and authenticity of the charisms. The Council says: "Extraordinary gifts are not to be sought after, nor are the fruits of apostolic labor to be presumptuously expected from their use; but judgment as to their genuinity and proper use belongs to those who are appointed leaders in the Church, to whose special competence it belongs, not indeed to extinguish the Spirit, but to test all things and hold fast to that which is good (cf. 1 Thess 5:12, 19-21)" (LG 12).

Some generally followed criteria of discernment can be indicated both by the ecclesiastical authority or by spiritual masters and directors:

a) Agreement with the Church's faith in Jesus Christ (cf. 1 Cor 12:3). A gift of the Holy Spirit cannot be contrary to the faith which the same Spirit inspires in the whole Church. "This is how," St. John writes, "you can know the Spirit of God: every spirit that acknowledges Jesus Christ come in the flesh belongs to God, and every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus does not belong to God" (1 Jn 4:2).

b) The presence of the "fruit of the spirit: love, joy, peace" (Gal 5:22). Every gift of the Spirit fosters growth in love, both in the person himself and in the community, and thus it produces joy and peace.

If a charism causes trouble and confusion, this means either that it is not genuine or that it has not been used in the right way. As St. Paul says: "He is not the God of disorder but of peace" (1 Cor 14:33). Without love, even the most extraordinary charisms are not at all useful (cf. 1 Cor 13:1-3; cf. also Mt 7:22-23).

c) Conformity with the Church's authority and acceptance of its directives. After laying down very strict rules for using charisms in the Church of Corinth, St. Paul says: "If anyone thinks that he is a prophet or a spiritual person, he should recognize that what I am writing to you is a commandment of the Lord" (1 Cor 14:37). The authentic charismatic is recognized by his sincere docility to the pastors of the Church. A charism cannot cause rebellion or a rupture of unity.

d) The use of charisms in the community is subject to a simple rule: "Everything should be done for building up" (1 Cor 14:26). That is, charisms are accepted to the extent that they make a constructive contribution to the life of the community, a life of union with God and of fraternal communion. St. Paul insists firmly on this rule (1 Cor 14:4-5, 12, 18-19, 26-32).
(from his June 24, 1992 General Audience, available at [url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_pau...9920624en.html)"]http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_pau...9920624en.html)[/url] [/quote]

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='p0lar_bear' date='Jun 9 2004, 08:13 PM']



Both the Holy Father and Cardinal Ratzinger have made statements in favor of the current movement. It is inappropriate, then, for any of the faithful to maintain that the movement is outside of or contrary to the Church.

[/quote]
It is this point that I will call into question here. I will not question the entire movement here (only because to do so will result in getting this thread shut down) but rather, we are not bound to accept such prudential judgements by either of the two. In other words, I am not being diobedient if I say that all my local experiences with it have been bad or that it seems that liturgical abuses are common within that movement or even that I strongly caution one to be careful with such "movements" within the Church.

[p0lar_bear]

[quote]In other words, I am not being diobedient if I say that all my local experiences with it have been bad or that it seems that liturgical abuses are common within that movement or even that I strongly caution one to be careful with such "movements" within the Church.
[/quote]

Did you or did you not read the two paragraphs immediately preceeding the one you quoted. Yes, there have been and continue to be abuses. That's why discernment is necessary. I'm in no way saying that everyone who claims to be a charismatic Catholic is fully in line with the Church.

As I said, care should be taken with any movement or community within the Church (that includes traditionalist movements, Marian groups, etc. as well as charismatic).

I put in two entire posts on discernment because it is incredibly important.

[popestpiusx]

Just making sure everything is clear.

[p0lar_bear]

P3chrmd,

Is that enough information, or do you need more?